I have two old magneto phones that I have strung a wire between and they work. When the crank is turned on either one, it rings the other phone as well as its own bells. Talking between the phones is fine also. I thought this was normal until reading a couple of articles stating that when the crank is turned, only the far end phone's bells should ring and the phone's own bells should remain silent. It says that if your own bells ring then the wiring has been modified. So I was wondering if my phones may be wired incorrectly since the phones' own bells ring when cranked. They look all original, and I have a couple other magneto phones that also ring their own bells when cranked. It seems odd that all of them have been modified, but maybe so. What do you all think?
thanks!
the photos show what I have connected together, a W.E. and a Sumter Telephone, working great
On every magneto set I have seen, the local ringer rings when the magneto is cranked. If it didn't, the caller wouldn't be sure that their magneto was generating a voltage.
Larry
Most magneto phones ring their own bell when cranked. Some are configurable so you can choose to have your own bell ring or not. A few don't ring their own bell.
I think whoever wrote that only had one magneto phone and it didn't ring its own bell (by design or by fault) and he assumed that was normal.
Jack
thanks so much for the replies! I love using these and watching my 7 and 10 yr old kids use them. They also know how to use a rotary phone :)
I believe that Kellogg wall magneto phones do not ring their own bells. There is an extra contact on the hand generator that disconnects the ringer. Western Electric phones, on the other hand, don't have this third terminal for disconnecting the ringer.
It's possible to swap two wires on the Kellogg generator terminals if you want your own phone to ring when cranking.
The definition of a phone "working" for many antique dealers is that the bells ring when you turn the crank!
An excellent, excellent question.
I thought for sure that they all did, but then I followed the link here in the forums about making a wooden phone work with today's CO battery. In that guy's article it says specifically that if the bells ring when you crank then your phone is wired wrong. I was completely like what the heck, I thought I checked all the wires! Of course I didn't stick a meter on them to trace, just eyeballed it. That's good to hear that WECo phones are suppose to ring their own bells.
This is a good question, in the very beginning they tested out series, parallel etc to find whats working, the generator (or inductor) did 2steal" the signals, and got a switch pretty early, and higher and higher resistance of the ringer came, much of the same reason, but also to be more sensitive to weak ringing signals. Here in Norway it became a standard in 1918 to have a button on the phone with 2 functions, it cut out own ringer when held down, and it shorted out the induction coil, so the phone was listen only. In 1934 we got a new anti sidetone telephone, and this had automatic switching ringer out, generator in when cranking. (The older phones was left in service until they did not do the job, or automatic exchanges took over. (Where I now live in 1968)
dsk
Bells ring on my W.E. 317.
D/P
The correct answer to this question is: It all depends...
Telephone companies used various types of signaling systems, using differing technical philosophies and having differing technical requirements. The answer to this is buried in the historical developments of the technology.
A general widely employed principle in the development of telephone service was that customers should not have to perform extra tasks in addition to the most basic actions intuitively required to make a telephone call, and that they did not need to understand the internal workings of the apparatus. This is widely expressed not only in the documents of AT&T and Western Electric, but also in the independent historical handbooks of telephony, Kempster Miller (1933) is a good one, for example.
Based on history, it really is not necessary that users hear the bells ringing when operating the generator. The expectation of reliable service was that the operator answers with a query for a number or name. The user did not need to know whether a current was generated and many did not understand the concept of electricity anyways, until some point in time. Technically, the local bell represented an additional load on the already heavily loaded line reducing efficiency, but by the historical thinking and methodology, this could not be avoided initially.
The first ringing systems did ring all bells on the line when any one of the subscribers operated the generator. This was initially unavoidable because ringers and generators were wired in series, not only at one station, but along the entire line. To ease the load on the line, the generators had an automatic shunt to short-circuit the generator when not in use. In the 1890s or so, John Carty pointed out that this was all wrong and invented bridged wiring in which each ringer as well as the generator were connected from one line wire to ground for divided ringing or across both line wires where metallic ringing was in use. By the 1910s this had become the standard wiring method in the industry.
When studying only Western Electric equipment in hind-sight, it may seem that local ringers should always sound when the magneto is operated. Indeed, the WECo circuits do not provide any other wiring option. Despite Carty's invention, the Bell System's magneto signaling as well as their frequency ringing systems actually remained the most primitive and fault-prone, quickly eclipsed by the independent manufacturers' designs.
As a result many of the magneto telephone sets of the independent makers can be configured either way. This was in general known as the "Universal Circuit", which provided options for silent ringer operation, for divided ringing, and metallic ringing.
Today, in a collection display, I find it very annoying to have the local bell ringing when operating the magneto, because it prevents me from hearing the other sets on the demonstration magneto line. It is much more interesting to hear the other sets respond. Just last year I found an unmolested Leich magneto set which was wired for silent ringer operation.
QuoteWhen studying only Western Electric equipment in hind-sight, it may seem that local ringers should always sound when the magneto is operated. Indeed, the WECo circuits do not provide any other wiring option. Despite Carty's invention, the Bell System's magneto signaling as well as their frequency ringing systems actually remained the most primitive and fault-prone, quickly eclipsed by the independent manufacturers' designs.
The Western Electric TYPE 44 was an early box that featured a shunt button for silent signalling. Also many early New England Telephone sets were equipped with shunts, many of them used early Bell licensee and WE components.
Quote from: Sargeguy on January 27, 2017, 05:36:48 PM
The Western Electric TYPE 44 was an early box that featured a shunt button for silent signalling. Also many early New England Telephone sets were equipped with shunts, many of them used early Bell licensee and WE components.
Probably also designed by Carty; He came from Boston and the NETT company before joining WECo. He held a large collection of patents for telephone signaling in that period.
PS: I can certainly envision switching arrangements on the hand generator that would shunt the ringer in a series circuit automatically just as well. Later generators had a variety of switch configurations, but not those commonly found by WECo.
I had a Kellogg Wall phone that the the gongs rang when the Magneto was cranked, BUT only when it was straight up, lying down it would not ring.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17193.msg177464#msg177464
I have had WE boxes that do the same, ring when straight up, but not flat.
I think they should have rang or how else did you know you were calling "Sara".....Doug
Quote from: Doug Rose on January 27, 2017, 06:46:21 PM
I think they should have rang or how else did you know you were calling "Sara".....Doug
The bells of a common battery set did not ring either when lifting the receiver. The user had to wait for the answer by the operator.
I guess this will make some more comments, but from what they did teach here, we had 3 ways of wiring ringers;
1: bridged, wish rings "always".
2: Connected with switches shorting the part of the circuit witch not is in use. Designed by L.M.Ericsson.
3: Connected with switches changing between the parts of the circuit witch should be used. Designed by BELL
The switches are hook sw. and an automatic switch engaged by rotating the inductor (Generator)
I will guess this explanation is pretty simplified to what was the actual truth, but still enough for educating a common "telephone man".
Enclosed sketch:
dsk
I walked around the phone room last night and cranked every magneto and magneto wall phone that I have. The gongs rang on all of them.
I am not sure if this is a true test as I would not know common battery form the common cold. 8)
This is in our kitchen, WE parts with a Couch tag. It rings...Doug
"I would not know common battery form [sic] the common cold."
Mr. Rose:
There are two ways to supply talking battery to a telephone:
Local Battery. As the term implies, a battery is installed at the LOCAL location of the telephone, and the talking circuit is coupled through capacitors (a so-called dry connection) to the line wires. One's own battery powers one's own telephone, and no others.
Common Battery. As the term implies, a large battery is installed in COMMON with all the telephones in a system. The individual telephones are connected directly (a so-called metallic connection) to the line wires. The common battery is a large supply located in the central office.
As collectors of telephones, it is important that we understand these two fundamental terms, as they provide the electrical watershed in the history of telephony. No two other comparative terms hold as much significance.
Quote from: unbeldi on January 27, 2017, 01:51:12 PM
The first ringing systems did ring all bells on the line when any one of the subscribers operated the generator. This was initially unavoidable because ringers and generators were wired in series, not only at one station, but along the entire line. In the 1890s or so, John Carty pointed out that this was all wrong and invented bridged wiring in which each ringer as well as the generator were connected from one line wire to ground for divided ringing or across both line wires where metallic ringing was in use. By the 1910s this had become the standard wiring method in the industry.
Re: Divided ringing (tip side of line to ground, or ring side of line to ground).
I thought the same thing about divided ringers on magneto lines, but Keith C. correctly pointed out that if ringers were connected in this manner, then you would be able to call only half of the other parties on your line, that is, those whose ringers were connected in the same way as yours. You would have to call the operator to ring the parties with ringers on the other side of the line to ground.
Quote from: Victor Laszlo on January 28, 2017, 12:25:27 PM
"I would not know common battery form [sic] the common cold."
Mr. Rose:
There are two ways to supply talking battery to a telephone:
Local Battery. As the term implies, a battery is installed at the LOCAL location of the telephone, and the talking circuit is coupled through capacitors (a so-called dry connection) to the line wires. One's own battery powers one's own telephone, and no others.
Common Battery. As the term implies, a large battery is installed in COMMON with all the telephones in a system. The individual telephones are connected directly (a so-called metallic connection) to the line wires. The common battery is a large supply located in the central office.
As collectors of telephones, it is important that we understand these two fundamental terms, as they provide the electrical watershed in the history of telephony. No two other comparative terms hold as much significance.
Mr. Laszlo......properly schooled.....thank you for taking the time.....Doug
From Western Electric Telephone and Apparatus and Supplies, Catalog No. 7, 1929, pp. 228-229:
TELEPHONES -- MAGNETO
Magneto Telephone Systems
Service. The number of magneto telephones that can be connected on the same line varies, ringing
from 1 to 40 or more. However, a line having more than 20 or 30 phones connected to it, is usually
very unsatisfactory from a service standpoint, except in case of necessity or for temporary service, the reason
for this being that a line having so many telephones is found to be in use almost continuously, the bells
ringing at very frequent intervals and the users almost sure to be "rung in the ears" or otherwise interrupted
during a telephone conversation....
Code Ringing Non-Selective
The most universal method of signalling parties on a magneto telephone line is by code ringing. In
the code ringing system, rings of different codes are employed for signalling each telephone, such as 2 short,
3 short, or 1 long and a short, 2 long and 2 short rings or other combinations. This system has the advantage
that it can be used with a large number of telephones on the same line, any number in fact, the
number which can be placed on a line depending on conditions other than ringing. Again, it is a simple
system, as no special apparatus has to be used, the undesirable feature being that when one tele-
phone is called, all the other telephones on the line are also rung, making it necessary for the user to count
every signal in order to know when he is being called. This system is most commonly used on rural or
farmers' telephone lines.
FOUR PARTY SELECTIVE -- EMPLOYING PULSATING CURRENT
In this system, any one of four telephones on the same line may be rung without ringing the others.
This is accomplished by sending positive or negative pulsating current out over either side of the line (through
the ringers connected to that side of the line), to ground. In other words, the central office operator con-
nects either the positive or the negative terminal of the ringing generator to either of the two line wires
and as one terminal of the generator is permanently grounded a return circuit is established through the
ringers. The ringers used in this service are equipped with bias springs and armature stop screws and are
so adjusted that they will ring when negative pulsating current is connected to the terminal nearest the
bias spring and will not ring when positive current is connected to this terminal.
Two of these ringers are connected from each side of the line to ground, the ringers on the same side of the line being connected differently; in other words, one ringer is connected with the negative terminal (the terminal
nearest the bias spring) to the line while the other on the same side of the line has its positve terminal
(the terminal opposite the bias spring) connected to the line. In view of this, it will be seen that when pulsating current is sent out over one side of the line, through the ringers, to ground only one of the
ringers will respond, depending on the polarity of the ringing current.
The generator (No. 22E) used in these telephone operates the central office drop but does not operate the ringers on the line.
Quote from: poplar1 on January 28, 2017, 12:43:38 PM
Re: Divided ringing (tip side of line to ground, or ring side of line to ground).
I thought the same thing about divided ringers on magneto lines, but Keith C. correctly pointed out that if ringers were connected in this manner, then you would be able to call only half of the other parties on your line, that is, those whose ringers were connected in the same way as yours. You would have to call the operator to ring the parties with ringers on the other side of the line to ground.
This does not invalidate the concept of divided ringing. On many local battery lines the operator was to be called for any calls on the local line.
"Mr. Laszlo......properly schooled.....thank you for taking the time.....Doug"
My pleasure. BTW a common cold is much more unpleasant.
Quote from: unbeldi on January 28, 2017, 01:48:06 PM
This does not invalidate the concept of divided ringing. On many local battery lines the operator was to be called for any calls on the local line.
Yes, you had to call the operator for all calls on 4-party selective lines with pulsating current (as described above). That's because none of the ringers on the line would respond to the 22E hand generator.
Another method used "Central Office Selective Signalling", also known as "central checking." Many Northern Electric magneto phones have the button on the left side for this purpose. When the button is not pressed, "all" (not "1/2") of the phones on the line are rung without throwing the drop at the switchboard, according to this WE Catalog #7.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Catalog #7, page 229:
CENTRAL OFFICE SELECTIVE SIGNALLING Telephones for this service are so wired that the switchboard drop or signal may be operated "secretly,"
that is without ringing the bells of any of the other telephones on the same line. This is accomplished by
pressing a button while turning the generator crank. We are prepared to furnish three different telephones,
each equipped with a different type of push button, which performs similar service, but in a slightly different
manner, the results, however, being much the same.
Central Office Selective Signalling the 1006A
Push Button and A.C Generator. Operating
the push button connects the generator to one
side of the line and to the ground. These
telephones can be used only on metallic lines
and where the switchboard drop is singly wound
and has one terminal of its winding connected
(or arranged so that it can be connected) to
ground. When the generator is operated with-
out pressing the push button, all the other telephones on the line are rung without operating the drop at the
exchange. When the push button is pressed when turning the generator crank, the drop is "thrown"
(operated) and none of the other telephone ringers on the line are rung.
A 1927 Southwestern Bell booklet showing installation of 1317 Sets on Rural Lines shows Tip, Ring and Ground going to the external protector, but only two wires going to the phone ( L1 and L2, but no ground). (See attached photos.)
Another booklet shows that L1 and L2 terminals are connected to the two wires of the line on metallic lines. On lines having only one wire, then L1 and L2 are connected to the one line wire and ground. In both cases, all the ringers are connected in parallel to L1 and L2 terminals inside the telephones.
That booklet should be a good advice for today's hobbyists too, at least when building a line to their shed, neighbors or??
it would be good reading for many of us, so please take pictures, or scan and share. It was easy to read from your pictures.
Thank you! :-)
dsk
Thanks to everyone for the enlightening discussion. I will go along with it is ok if cranking my phones ring their own bells. I have added a diagram I found inside my Sumter telephone.
Quote from: shadow67 on January 29, 2017, 07:28:52 PM
Thanks to everyone for the enlightening discussion. I will go along with it is ok if cranking my phones ring their own bells. I have added a diagram I found inside my Sumter telephone.
The Sumpter wall telephone certainly is wired to ring the bell when using the generator.
For reference, here is a circuit diagram based on the wiring schematic you provided.
The generator is perhaps not shunted when in rest position, or it may not be indicated in the schematic, but my diagram shows it.
[PS: Nobody noticed the mistake in the connections of the generator switch, now corrected. ]
The contact set makes it possible to use the phone with silent ringer when calling too, just by moving the red ringer wire:
dsk
Quote from: dsk on January 30, 2017, 03:19:10 AM
The contact set makes it possible to use the phone with silent ringer when calling too, just by moving the red ringer wire:
dsk
As I pointed out, the original connection diagram from the instrument probably does not have the shunting contacts that I drew.
Man, some great discussion in this thread.
My WECo 317N rings the bells locally when I crank it.
Quote from: shadow67 on January 27, 2017, 08:49:37 AM
I have two old magneto phones that I have strung a wire between and they work. When the crank is turned on either one, it rings the other phone as well as its own bells. Talking between the phones is fine also. I thought this was normal until reading a couple of articles stating that when the crank is turned, only the far end phone's bells should ring and the phone's own bells should remain silent. It says that if your own bells ring then the wiring has been modified.
Western Electric Model 1317 Manual (http://doc.telephonecollectors.info/dm/Western_Electric_1317_Telephone_tl.pdf) says on page 18, "Turn the handle of the generator. This should cause the bell to ring."
See also page 21, troubleshooting: "5. Your bell does not ring but you are able to ring up other stations on the line. Look for a broken wire or loose connection in the wires leading from the ringer."
That's straight from the horse's mouth!