News:

"The phone is a remarkably complex, simple device,
and very rarely ever needs repairs, once you fix them." - Dan/Panther

Main Menu

Western Electric 317N

Started by War Horse, January 06, 2017, 08:59:01 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

War Horse

Hi All.  I've been trolling the forums for awhile now looking for information, but just finally decided to join. 

I'm in the process of restoring a Western Electric 317N that my girlfriend bought for me.  While I'm not an avid telephone collector, I do have a few pieces in my collection, one of which is my favorite, a Western Electric 500 C/D that I've converted to work with VoIP.  Anyway, the girlfriend knew I'd been wanting a wooden wall phone, so this fall she not only surprised me with one, but asked that I clean it up and hang it in the living room!  Yeah, she's definitely a keeper.  She managed to find a WE 317N with a 323 transmitter, 5 bar generator, and 143 receiver.  It was in great shape, but it just needed a little TLC.  The phone was dirty from years of storage, but mechanically it was complete.  The shelf on the front had been broken off, but other than that no real damage.

I didn't want to strip and sand the wood, I wanted to keep it original as possible.  So I cleaned it several times with Murphy's Oil Soap, took some light steel wool to it, cleaned it again, and then did three coats of wood rejuvenating oil on it.  For the internals I completely disassembled everything and between a Dremel and a wire brush I got all the dust and dirt out of it plus polished the various screws and terminals.  I disassembled the generator, serviced it, and painted the bars back black.  It's not completely back together yet, I'm awaiting some parts I bought, namely a square reciever base.  From everything I can tell the cabinet of this phone was manufactured before they started putting on the 323 transmitters with the 2 screw round base.  I thought about leaving the round base on, but those 4 drilled holes for the square base just drive me nuts.  So, I cleaned up the transmitter and once I get the new base in and get it restored it'll go on instead. 

The pictures below are how it looked after just a quick cleaning when I got it and then the others are how it looks right now.  It's still a work in progress, but I'm hoping to have it done and hanging on the wall soon.  After that I'll just keep looking for batteries for it, which seems to be a nightmare process. 

unbeldi

#1
Looks like it came with a 250 or 350-type transmitter originally, indeed.
It already has the No. 48 generator, 1317 sets were already built while the No. 47 generator was still in use, but the housing had a decorative groove around the transmitter, I believe, which yours is already lacking. So, I think yours was perhaps built between 1912 and 1916 or so.
I see an 1600 ohm ringer, so the set probably a 1317N, without capacitor.

OOPS, sorry, I see you already stated it as a 317-N. good.  I am not sure exactly when the 48 generator came out, but it was between 1908 and 1912.

unbeldi

Quote from: War Horse on January 06, 2017, 08:59:01 AM
  After that I'll just keep looking for batteries for it, which seems to be a nightmare process.

You could start out with making your own look-alike batteries, using cardboard rolled up in the right size and printing out one of the readily available label  images, covering the cardboard.  These could be stuffed with a C- or D-cell.   Buying new No. 6 dry cells these days is expensive, but someone still makes them—in Europe or Asia, IIRC ?

Instead of batteries, many cell phone chargers also provide sufficiently filtered DC power of 5V or so.

War Horse

Thanks for the tips on when it was produced.  I knew that the flat face 317s came out toward WW1, but couldn't quite nail down roughly when this set was produced.  I think the 323 transmitter was original for this set, just based on the dirt around the contacts and them being super torqued down.  Plus the varnish under it appears original where everything else around it is faded.  Of course there's also the likelihood that the original transmitter went out early on and the technician only had 323's with round bases to repair it with.  Thankfully Matt at Old Phone Works had a rectangle base for the 323.  I just hated seeing those 4 drilled holes in the case.

I saw those instructions for making paper tube batteries.  I'll probably go that route in the end.  I ordered three from McMaster-Carr and instead of sending me what I ordered, they sent me short fat lantern batteries instead and said that they didn't have the ones I ordered and those were voltage equivalent.  I want to do them and have them look correct.  The wall wart idea is interesting.  I may see about wiring that in and using the mailing tubes just for looks. 

unbeldi

#4
Quote from: War Horse on January 06, 2017, 12:54:03 PM
Thanks for the tips on when it was produced.  I knew that the flat face 317s came out toward WW1, but couldn't quite nail down roughly when this set was produced.  I think the 323 transmitter was original for this set, just based on the dirt around the contacts and them being super torqued down.  Plus the varnish under it appears original where everything else around it is faded.  Of course there's also the likelihood that the original transmitter went out early on and the technician only had 323's with round bases to repair it with.  Thankfully Matt at Old Phone Works had a rectangle base for the 323.  I just hated seeing those 4 drilled holes in the case.

The fact that you have those four holes should tell us, I think, that it originally had a 250 transmitter, the number stands for the whole assembly including the mounting arm.  I don't think a 323 ever came on a long arm.

War Horse

#5
Well poop, the rectangle base that came in wouldn't work with my 323 and it's cup.  The base and cup I got in was from a Kellogg wooden wall phone.  While the 323's gut would work in the cup, it was stamped with big letters on the back of it Kellogg.  I just can't do it, mixing parts like.  Plus the screw holes are just slightly smaller, so I'd have to drill the face.  :(

So I'm back to square one finding a rectangle base.  I know they existed, I've seen photos like the attached, just seems impossible to find one these days.  I'd just convert it to a long arm transmitter, but the writing shelf is the later steep angle version. 

unbeldi

Are you in a rush ?   :D
Patience is a virtue in collecting.  Sooner or later a suitable transmitter will come along.  Sometimes you have to buy a batch of old parts from a seller on eBay, but you can often get your money back by selling what you don't need.

War Horse

Ha!  Tell me about it.  I enjoy the hunt, but some things just eat at me more than others.  I've decided to go ahead and refurb the round base that came with it for now.  That way I can get it back together and hung on the wall, but take my time looking for various other parts I want for it.  Plus getting it off the workbench will motivate me to start ordering parts to make the fake dry cell batteries.  I really need to sit down and refine my eBay searches.  I've taken a stab at looking for bulk parts a couple of times, but I think I'm using the wrong key words in my searches so far.  I seem to find completed phones more than parts or such. 

In the same shipment as the Kellogg base, I also got a new receiver hook switch.  After looking at it a bit, I'm leaning toward not putting it on.  For one it's a bit too shiney.  The other thing is that it's got holes at the end of it.  Now I'm not sure, but what little I could find it seems as if the new hook switch is for candlestick phones instead of wooden wall phones.  Mine isn't in bad shape, just needs some clean up.  See the pic below.

unbeldi

Say, I am wondering whether you are showing the same telephone in the first pictures of this thread and the one with the light wood.  Did you strip it and sand it ?

It seems to me the shelf is at a steeper angle in the last picture, which was a feature of the later sets.

poplar1

Quote from: War Horse on January 18, 2017, 04:37:35 PM
Well poop, the rectangle base that came in wouldn't work with my 323 and it's cup.  The base and cup I got in was from a Kellogg wooden wall phone.  While the 323's gut would work in the cup, it was stamped with big letters on the back of it Kellogg.  I just can't do it, mixing parts like.  Plus the screw holes are just slightly smaller, so I'd have to drill the face.  :(

So I'm back to square one finding a rectangle base.  I know they existed, I've seen photos like the attached, just seems impossible to find one these days.  I'd just convert it to a long arm transmitter, but the writing shelf is the later steep angle version. 

I don't believe that this is a "late 317" since it does not appear to be either Western Electric or Northern Electric. Notice that the gongs can be adjusted externally on this one. WE and NE gongs are adjusted from the inside of the phone. Also, the  fastener is different; WE/NE have a nickel (or black) escutcheon rather than a round ferrule.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

Oh, yes.  Now I understand the text, hmm, I should have read more. It was an example.   I agree with Poplar1.
Western made three or four types of the 317, one of them was even a slightly smaller box.
The steeper shelf was one of latest or the latest type.

poplar1

The correct WE/NE  transmitter bracket for the 1417s and  later 1317s is the 8A. It has an oval base. Here is a NE 1417CG posted by sebbel:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=6774.msg77676#msg77676

"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

#12
Here is a manual for the 317, that came from the TCI library originally. I am not sure of the date of this, but I think it is later than 1916.
It shows the part numbers of the time.  I believe this shows the steep writing shelf. It also has the 323-type transmitter with the short neck.
I think yours is an earlier version.

poplar1

I just tried a Western Electric "cup" with a WE rectangular base from a 1907 transmitter. It's not a good fit: There is about 1/8" gap between each side of the "cup" and the rectangular mount.

Bottom line: the WE rectangular base was used only with the "long arm" such as found on  a 250 or 350 transmitter assembly.

Perhaps they "modernized" your phone by replacing the transmitter with the "short arm" 8A mount, and at the same time changed the angle of the shelf (??). A photo of the side of the phone, showing the brackets for the shelf, might confirm this.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

Notice the brackets for the writing shelf used with the #250 transmitter (long arm):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1894-Antique-Western-Electric-Tiger-Oak-Crank-Wall-Phone-Brass/272523272348
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.