Trying to Connect WE N317 & Kellogg Wall Phones

[dsk]

All readings seems to be as wanted, no errors, that is confusing!

I guess we have to test the phones separate.  (We forget the ringer circuit until we have tested some more)

Each telephone should just be shorted across the line, and you should hear yourself pretty well when speaking.

If I got it right, the Kellogg is the problem, if not... I have to think again 

dsk

[bidnadir]

Hi DSK,

Yup, you're right:

-I shorted L1 to L2 putting a jumper cable between both connections on the Western Electric and could hear myself well.
-I did the same thing on the Kellogg and ...nothing.

CW

[dsk]

This is really strange, it seems like everything is right... but the receiver on the Kellogg does not work, and when you speak into the Kellogg transmitter you may here it in the other phone (when connected).

If you connect the 2 phones again, you may hear in the WE phone both yourselves speaking in the transmitter on the WE and speaking in the transmitter on the Kellogg.  You hear nothing in the Kellogg receiver? Right?

If so, removing one (wire or both) on the receiver terminals in the Kellogg phone should result in: Listening on the WE, and silence when speaking in the Kellogg transmitter, and weak signal, or nothing  when you speak in to the WE transmitter.

If you still hear in the WE receiver, something is bypassing the Kellogg receiver.

This is really a mystery!

dsk

[bidnadir]

Hi DSK,

- The receiver on the Kellogg does not work, and when you speak into the Kellogg transmitter you may here it in the other phone (when connected):  Correct
- If you connect the 2 phones again, you may hear in the WE phone both yourselves speaking in the transmitter on the WE and speaking in the transmitter on the Kellogg.  You hear nothing in the Kellogg receiver? Right?:  Correct.
-When removing one (wire or both) on the receiver Kellogg receiver results in silence when speaking in the Kellogg transmitter.when you speaking into to the WE transmitter:  Correct.

I have moved the phones into my garage and now have them set up side by side to make it a bit easier to work on them.    Unless I am dreaming, I believe I am hearing ever so faintly on the Kellogg.    I think the issue may be more of volume than total silence on the Kellogg.    It's difficult to validate this as it's in incredibly weak amount of volume I am getting out of the Kellogg.   Is there anything I can do to boost volume in the Kellogg receiver or any testing you suggest to prove this out?   I think I might be wrong on this though as when I listen on the WE and then push the hook down on the Kellogg, I hear two distinctive clicks.     When I do the same thing on the Kellogg and listen to the Kellogg receiver and the press down on the hook on the WE, there is dead silence...  More I think about this, I think it's just wishful thinking that I think I am hearing something in the Kellogg.

The other thing I have noticed is that the operation of the phones does not change if I disconnect the battery in the Western Electric.   With the Western Electric battery fully disconnected, I can still hear perfectly from the WE and clearly am able to hear well when tapping on the Kellogg transmitter.   Reconnecting the Kellogg battery makes zero difference to the operation of the two phones.   This makes me wonder if the issue is a power connection on the Kellogg side.    I have done some testing, but so far can't find where the issue might be (if there is one). 

Charles

[RB]

Man! what an ongoing head scratch-er.
Is there any possibility, that the magneto in the kellogg has the switches stuck/bent so that it has
itself, and the bells always across the line?
Could something like that, cause low volume in the receiver?
The only other thing may be a broken wire.
I don't see any wires inside the kellogg.
could it be that a wire has broken off a contact in the back?
The test results you made with the meter bug me a little.
usually, you get a small reading on a digital meter for a point to point connection. not just "0".
You can, just sounds like an open if all you get is "0".
But i am not there, so I have to imagine what you are seeing.
I will say one thing, If DSK cant help you get that bird to sing, I don't know who can!
Regards.

[bidnadir]

Hi Guys,

Good news to report, both phones are now working.   I frankly don't know what exactly the problem was, but decided to re-solder all of the connection points on the Western Electric, and it now works.   The only thing is that it is still much quieter listening from the Kellogg than the WE but that may just be a difference in the phones.  There is a condenser in the WE but not in the Kellogg, so not sure if that may have some difference in the volume output, but in any case, they both work.   

I can't that you guys enough for all of the help!!

Charles

[dsk]

This is one of the most strange case I have heard, but yes you may be right about a weaker receiver on the Kellogg, but if so it should have worked perfect if you change it by one you know is working.  The WE transmitter should not work without a local battery! so that seems to be a mystery.

As RB say, if the switch on the Kellogg magneto do not work properly, it may cause weak signals, that may be tested by sliding paper or plastic in between the contacts, and test.

The capacitor should not be an issue here.  The voice signal on these should go in series between both receiver, both induction coils secondary windings, both hook-switches etc so if one of the connections break, all speech should disappear. (It will also go trough the capacitors if they are there)  The Capacitors has 2 functions, 1: to protect against DC in the receiver, and 2: to make it possible to make ring-signal to the phone even if the receiver are off hook. (here only the WE phone)

What can you do to increase the receivers sensitivity? The distance between the iron diaphragm, and the coil(s) should be a small as possible without touching each other while it is working. (The magnet should be strong enough, and it seems like it is getting stronger during use)

dsk

[andre_janew]

It's probably some simple thing you overlooked.  Whatever it is, you'll find it and then wonder why you hadn't thought of it in the first place!  For all I know, there could be a loose or broken wire somewhere.  You may have already checked for that, but sometimes it pays to check again.  You may have missed something the first time.

[dsk]

It should not be a loose or broken wire, but it may be a perodic short depending on moving on the receiver ore something else.
If it is a loose/broken  one both ends should be dead.

dsk

[bidnadir]

Hi DSK,

Regarding the WE 'working' without the battery, what I meant by this was that I could hear through the WE receiver even with the Western Electric battery disconnected.    At that point I wasn't hearing anything on the Kellogg, so didn't realize the WE transmitter wasn't working with the WE battery disconnected.

Although both sets are now 'working' the volume on the Kellogg receiver is still very low relative to the WE.   I'll test the Kellogg magneto the way you have described to see if that may be an issue.  You note indicated, "...if the switch on the Kellogg magneto does not work properly, it may cause weak signals, that may be tested by sliding paper or plastic in between the contacts, and test."    I am not sure I am understanding this exactly, can you explain a bit more how I can test this.

Again, really appreciate it!

Charles

[dsk]

Try to slide in something to isolate the contacts like the yellow lines were plastic film.


dsk

[bidnadir]

Hi DSK,

I tested by putting a cut up old plastic credit card between each of the contacts on the Kellogg and it made no difference to the volume coming from the Kellogg receiver.   I then tried doing the same thing on the WE, but again no difference, so I guess the good news here is that there's nothing wrong with the magneto switches.

I then took the receiver on the Kellogg apart and adjusted the magnets as you had suggested (or someone else suggested) in a prior post.    I hadn't done this prior as I had instead swapped for another receiver, so didn't think that was the issue.   The threads on the Kellogg receiver were also cross threaded and up until now, couldn't get it apart, but this time I was able to unscrew it.    I adjusted the magnets and that has made a huge difference.  I think the fact that the cap was cross threaded, combined with the it being maladjusted, was the primary volume issue.   It's much, much improved and almost on par with the WE now.   

DSK, I can't that yourself and all of the other posters enough for your help with this!   I was at my wits end on this one, and without your help I never would have got these old timers working.   

Cheers!   

Charles

[dsk]

Great, I love when I may help some one with these things.  These phones are old but still working, and would probably still work on lines on several miles, even when from the garage to your house are more reasonable.

dsk