Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => Candlestick Phones => Topic started by: Greg G. on April 17, 2013, 04:31:55 PM

Title: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Greg G. on April 17, 2013, 04:31:55 PM
I want to check out this stick I've had for a while but never hooked up.  I have two different subsets I can use.  It's not known if the subsets actually function, there's no notes I made one way or another, which means I haven't tested those either.

I just need to know which wire goes where, from phone to subset, and also the line cord.  One subset is a 634-BA, the other is a 684-A.  The cord on the phone is a 3 conductor.

The stick itself is a 151 AL with a 4H dial.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: southernphoneman on April 17, 2013, 04:33:35 PM
I want to check out this stick I've had for a while but never hooked up.  I have two different subsets I can use.  It's not known if the subsets actually function, there's no notes I made one way or another, which means I haven't tested those either.

I just need to know which wire goes where, from phone to subset, and also the line cord.  One subset is a 634-BA, the other is a 684-A.  The cord on the phone is a 3 conductor.

The stick itself is a 151 AL with a 4H dial.
let us know how it works because I am curious myself. ;)
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 17, 2013, 04:54:40 PM
You are using antisidetone subsets with a sidetone phione (having 3 wires).  That's ok, it will work just fine.

From the desk set to the subset:

Red to R in the subset
Green to GN in the subset
Yellow to L2/Y in the subset

I believe you will want to connect the BK to L2 Y in the subset with the sidetone phone.  I am not at home where I have notes on this, so perhaps someone else can chime in on that final point.  Even if you don't connect BK to anything else in the subset, it should still work ok.  Strapping BK to the other point will make it talk a little louder at the other end.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: poplar1 on April 17, 2013, 05:07:19 PM
The 151-AL is anti-sidetone, so it can be used with either a sidetone subset (534A, 584A, 295A) or with an anti-sidetone subset (634BA, 684A, etc.)

The cord pictured connected to the 684A appears to be correct:

Red to R
Green to GN
Yellow to Y/L2
Black to BK

Connect line to L1 (red) and L2 (green).

If using an anti-sidetone set (50-AL, 51AL, 102) with a sidetone subset:

Red to R
Green to GN
Yellow to Y/L2
tape and store the black lead on the subset end

Normally, you don't want to use a sidetone set (20-AL, 50-AL, 51-AL, 102 with 3-wire cord) with an anti-sidetone subset. Even though you could connect the black condenser wire to Y/L2, this is not advisable unless you have only 1 or maximum 2 ringers on the line, because it loads the line.  Also, the condenser may be damaged over time.

Your metal subset is a 634BA because it has a 4300 ohm ringer instead of a 1000 or 1400 ohm. That's a good ringer because you can have more phones ringing on your line with high impedance ringers.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: poplar1 on April 17, 2013, 06:29:34 PM
Here is a picture of the cording for a 151-AL (except that the red wire needs to move to the R on the terminal block and the black wire needs to be on BK of the dial).
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: poplar1 on April 17, 2013, 06:46:57 PM
On this one, the cord leads are correct, even though there is no dial.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Greg G. on April 17, 2013, 06:50:40 PM


The cord pictured connected to the 684A appears to be correct

Funny you should point that out.  I've had this thing so long I must have connected it to something at one time, then packed it away w/o any notes.  I have a thread here somewhere, now that I think about it, when I found that subset a year ago.  The antique store owner, old guy in his 70s, didn't know what it was, thought it was some sort of misc electronic doo-dad, so he put it in with the radios.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Greg G. on April 19, 2013, 03:14:35 PM
I decided to replace the original cord with a repro 4-conductor I had due to the original not having spade ends and just bare fragile wire. Turns out the original is also 4 conductor, just that somebody in the past cut the extra conductor off that goes to the subset. So I'm assuming that the 4-conductor repro will be ok to use, just tape off the extra conductor on the subset end. The phone end appeared to have used all 4.

The colors are only slightly different. Old cord has blue/grey, yellow, green, red. New cord has black, yellow, green, red. The red on the old cord was the one they snipped off at the subset end.

I know electrically speaking, the color doesn't matter, but I want to be consistent with the color codes that were used.  I'm assuming the black on the new would go where the blue/grey lead went.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: poplar1 on April 19, 2013, 03:22:43 PM
Move the blue-gray lead (former black) from RR to BK on the dial. Connect other end to BK terminal in the subset where the black condenser wire is.

Also, move the yellow line cord lead to B/Y where the blue hookswitch wire is.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: poplar1 on April 19, 2013, 03:26:00 PM
Can you show a picture of the hookswitch connections? Since there is a blue lead in the mounting cord, this may be a 51C or 151C instead of a 151AL?
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Greg G. on April 19, 2013, 03:28:28 PM
Move the blue-gray lead (former black) from RR to BK on the dial. Connect other end to BK terminal in the subset where the black condenser wire is.

Also, move the yellow line cord lead to B where the blue hookswitch wire is.

The picture shows how the old cord leads were hooked up, but I get what you're saying.  I'm going to swap the dial out too with another 4H I have.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Greg G. on April 19, 2013, 03:31:04 PM
Can you show a picture of the hookswitch connections? Since there is a blue lead in the mounting cord, this may be a 51C or 151C instead of a 151AL?

These?
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: poplar1 on April 19, 2013, 03:40:17 PM
Yes, that's a 151-AL switch.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Mr. Bones on April 19, 2013, 05:58:13 PM
     Thanks a lot for this very detailed, and informative thread, all! I'm learning some important stuff for the future.

     I have a slightly off-topic, but definitely related question that I have not seen addressed elsewhere:

     Is there any valid reason why one cannot hook two (or more) desk sets to one subset?

     At my house, I can see none, since only one would be off the hook at a time, which would be normal operating load on the subset.

     I would also think that even two off the hook at a time would be a nominal difference, perhaps causing a reduction in RX/TX volume, but am standing by to be corrected / enlightened, as necessary.

     Thanks in advance, and Happy Friday!

Best regards!

Terrence
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: poplar1 on April 21, 2013, 12:27:31 AM
If you are using a sidetone subset (such as Western Electric 295A, 534A, or 584A), you can hook multiple candlesticks or 102s to one subset, using 3-conductor cords from the phone and triple (3-conductor) inside wire from the subset.

However, if you are using an an anti-sidetone subset (4-conductors to phone) such as WE 634A or 684A, you cannot use more than one 202 or 151AL. This is because the red and black wires from the subset  would go to the  transmitter in each phone, so that when you are talking on one phone, the transmitter in the other room would pick up all the room noise of that room, even if the second phone was not off hook.

Western Electric did make special phones with extra contacts (R and RH in a 202, for example) that would disconnect the transmitter whenever the phone was hung up. These are not easy to find.

There are other ways to isolate the red lead by adding your own extra contacts or using a relay.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Mr. Bones on April 21, 2013, 01:10:23 AM
Thanks for the info!

     Does the same apply for '202's', or '211's'? I have zero candlesticks, thus far. Working on a remedy for that. ;)

Best regards!
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: poplar1 on April 21, 2013, 11:01:25 AM
If you use the two 202s or 211s or any combination with an anti-sidetone subset, then yes, the same problem exists. The two transmitters will be connected in parallel so when one phone is off-hook, both transmitters are activated. Many "211s" are actually 212s and already have extra contacts that you can use to open the red lead going from R on the subset to the red handset wire.


Thanks for the info!

     Does the same apply for '202's', or '211's'? I have zero candlesticks, thus far. Working on a remedy for that. ;)

Best regards!
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: poplar1 on April 21, 2013, 11:29:50 AM
Look at your "211s" and see if any of them are marked G-7 on the housing instead of G-1. If so, you can use the YT and YY contacts to break the two red leads.

BSP 502-303-403 Issue 3 April 1964 in TCI library shows the contacts for a G-7 handset mounting, which is part of a 212L.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Mr. Bones on April 21, 2013, 03:31:13 PM
Look at your "211s" and see if any of them are marked G-7 on the housing instead of G-1. If so, you can use the YT and YY contacts to break the two red leads.

BSP 502-303-403 Issue 3 April 1964 in TCI library shows the contacts for a G-7 handset mounting, which is part of a 212L.
     One of my 211's is still a G-1, with an F1 handset / straight cord. The other has the G-7 in vermillion ink, below the original G-1 marking, and has a G-1 handset with curly cord.

     Thanks for the BSP reference number; I just love learning more about my toys! ;)

Best regards!
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: poplar1 on April 23, 2013, 12:14:40 AM
The diagram in 502-303-403 is good for showing the extra contacts in a G-7 mounting compared to a G-1 mtg. However, this diagram is for connecting to a 685A subset.

For a 634a or 684A subset,  you would need to refer to a different BSP, such as Section C38.337, for the connections. (This does not show the G-7 mounting but rather the G-1.)

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_download/5489-c38-337-i1-aug57-hand-telephone-sets-211a-b-c-d

Still, in the G-7 mounting, you would move all the leads currently on R as folllows:

Red subset lead to YT
Red and white G-1 handset leads to YY (or only red handset lead for F-1 or E-1 handset)

You always need to check any G-type mounting to see how it is wired:
1---for a 685A  (5 wires to subset)
2---for a 634A, 684A, or 302 base (4 wires to subset)
3---hot wired by someone trying to make it work without a subset

You can always change from 1-- to 2--  by moving the black handset lead from BL to B.
If you want to try #3, you're on your own.



Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Greg G. on November 14, 2013, 12:41:34 AM
Here is a picture of the cording for a 151-AL (except that the red wire needs to move to the R on the terminal block and the black wire needs to be on BK of the dial).

I came back to this project and thread after letting it sit for 6 months, now I'm all confused.  

What subset(s) were used for this phone when they were in service?  I have a 634BA, 684A and 684BA.  If I can choose from one of those, then I would like to use the 634BA.

Could you label the wires in your pictures?  It's hard for me to tell from looking at the picture which wires are coming from the receiver cord and which are the line going to the subset.

How many conductors for the phone-to-subset cord?

How many conductors for the subset-to-wall cord?

Apparently I stopped in the middle of moving wires around on the dial, here's how it was left:
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Phonesrfun on November 14, 2013, 01:14:22 AM
684A would be the best. 

Phone to subset = 4 conductors, Red, green, yellow, black are standard colors

Subset to wall the usual 2 conductors, red and green are standard
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: poplar1 on November 14, 2013, 08:13:36 AM
Any of those subsets will work; the only difference is the As have low impedance ringers but the talk circuit--anti-sidetone--is the same.

Receiver:
Green to GN terminal
White to W on dial

Desk Stand Cord:
Green to GN terminal
Red to Red terminal
Yellow to B-Y terminal
Black to BK on dial

Harness:
Blue to B-Y terminal
Yellow to Y on dial
Red to R terminal
Brown-Blue to BB on dial
Black to BK on dial

If using a 4H, 5H or 6A dial: strap BB and W on dial

Subset:
Red to R on induction coil
Green to GN on induction coil
Yellow to Y-L2 on induction coil
Black to BK terminal (with black condenser wire)

Line
Red to L1
Green to L2Y

Ringer
Red to L1
Black to K

Condenser:
Yellow to L2Y
Slate to K
Red to C on induction coil
Black to BK
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with 3 subsets.
Post by: Greg G. on January 15, 2014, 10:21:03 PM
Finally got this thing wired correctly, but with an original 4-conductor cord.  Functions, but wouldn't you know it, now the dial wants to crap out on me, won't return fully.  That's ok, it works enough to dial a 2-digit extension on my PBX, plus I have another 4H dial to put in it, I'll just ship the other off to Steve Hilsz.  I hooked it up to the 634BA first, but it won't ring.  Those big gongs in a large case look like they would make quite a noise, that's why I wanted to use it.  Refresh my memory on that ringer, will it not work at all?
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: HarrySmith on January 15, 2014, 10:23:33 PM
Try moving the ringer wires to the coil from the board.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Greg G. on January 15, 2014, 10:50:16 PM
Try moving the ringer wires to the coil from the board.

I moved the black ringer wire from L1 on the board to L1 on the coil, but where does the red wire go?  There's no BK on the coil.  It almost works on L2, but it only rings once and disconnects (busy).
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: HarrySmith on January 15, 2014, 11:43:28 PM
As Poplar posted below Red to L1 and Black to K.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Greg G. on January 15, 2014, 11:52:57 PM
As Poplar posted below Red to L1 and Black to K.

Oops, it was right in front of me, thanks!
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Greg G. on January 16, 2014, 03:27:31 PM
That worked.  Now all I have to do is swap out the dial.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: unbeldi on January 16, 2014, 07:21:22 PM
These gongs can make a beautiful sound when adjusted right. They keep resonating for about 15 seconds after ringing stops.
Is there a ringer number on the yoke?
Most of the time you see these with low impedance ringers.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: Greg G. on January 17, 2014, 04:07:45 AM
These gongs can make a beautiful sound when adjusted right. They keep resonating for about 15 seconds after ringing stops.
Is there a ringer number on the yoke?
Most of the time you see these with low impedance ringers.

Dumb question, which part is the yoke?  I can only find a date stamp of II 38 on the underside of one of the ringer coils.  The gongs sound ok, but don't really resonate.  They seem to have a coating of "patine" and other crud, maybe even paint.  Perhaps with the help of some Brasso they will sound better.
Title: Re: Testing one of my sticks with two subsets.
Post by: unbeldi on January 17, 2014, 04:41:19 AM
These gongs can make a beautiful sound when adjusted right. They keep resonating for about 15 seconds after ringing stops.
Is there a ringer number on the yoke?
Most of the time you see these with low impedance ringers.

Dumb question, which part is the yoke?  I can only find a date stamp of II 38 on the underside of one of the ringer coils.  The gongs sound ok, but don't really resonate.  They seem to have a coating of "patine" and other crud, maybe even paint.  Perhaps with the help of some Brasso they will sound better.

The yoke is the bar that is attached with two nuts on each of the adjusting posts (brass) on both sides of the coils. It holds the pivot mount for the armature and clapper. By adjusting those nuts the distance between magnetic cores and the armature can optimized.  In addition, on your ringer the yoke also has an adjustment screw that limits the travel of the armature.

Typically the ringer model number is stamped into the metal on that yoke, or it is on a small brass or copper metal foil held by one of the nuts. Often it is hard to see the model number, but with some brushing and flash light, it may show up.

With a date of II 38, this is a very late issue of this ringer and it does look pretty new. That's probably why it has these high impedance coils (4300 ohms), similar to the B1A ringer (~4600 ohms), which was already out by this time.

Surprising to see the inverted gongs this late.  Not even the No. 9 catalog (1935) shows them anymore. I am wondering if this type of ringer (even with normal gongs) is still in the No. 10 catalog (~1939?), which I don't have.  Does anyone here?