Western Electric ringer as doorbell

[rotaryclub]

Hello all,

I'm trying to convert the ringer of a Western Electric ca 1970 to a door chime. I'm an experienced electrician but phone systems are an outlier of my knowledge.

In short, I'm simply looking to trigger the bells as simply as possible using existing house doorbell wiring. I understand the signal should be roughly 90VAC, 20Hz. I've tried briefly applying straight 120V and 24V (both utility 60Hz) directly to the ringer coils and through the phone's network capacitor. I get no mechanical response at all. I would expect at least some movement of the clapper.

The ringer coils ohms seem okay at 1k black-slate, 2.6 red-red/slate. The A-K cap reads out of spec at about 1.2uF.

I don't care about voice signal or even a "ring-ring" pattern--simply that the bells ring while the door button is depressed. I'm just looking to repurpose this piece of my history.
Thanks in advance for any help

[TelePlay]

This ring generator converts  3W 12 VDC to 70 VAC at 20 Hz. A couple of A23 batteries would probably last for several years as a doorbell power source.

A C4A was built to run at 20 Hz, 60 Hz is way too fast for that hardware.

Search the Forum for doorbell to find posted info.

[rotaryclub]

Thanks.
I've looked at some of these generators and am still exploring solutions. I was mostly surprised that I got absolutely no action out of the straight 120V, 60Hz. Is the frequency really that specific? I've read that the ringer should actually get a square wave, correct?

Would this also work?

[TelePlay]

The WE ringer is an electro magnet designed for the armature top with at 20 cycles per second. 60 cycles per second is too fast a cycle for the armature to properly react. I assume you clipped slate and slate red together with red and black disconnected from the network?

Did you check the continuity between red and black ringer wires with slate and slate red clipped together.

That ring generator image you posted requires a 110 Volt Direct Current primary. Don't know how clean.

Where do you plan to place the ringer? Do electrical codes in your area allow running 120 VAC in the wall over bell wire (thermostat and doorbell)? That stuff is max 18 volts, IIRC.

[dsk]

The ringer coils ohms seem okay at 1k black-slate, 2.6 red-red/slate. The A-K cap reads out of spec at about 1.2uF.

Good explanations in the earlier answers, I have done equal to the first answer. That solution works well, but the 1.2 uF cap makes me wonder if your ringer is a normal one. Do you have any pictures? Is it any text on the ringer motor coil?

Modern ringers should usually accept a wider frequency range, but 60 Hz would probably not give you a clean ringing sound.

[dsk]

This is my solution:   https://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=28441.0

[rotaryclub]

Hello, all. Thought I'd give an update to let you know your help has helped!

I ended up getting a PowerDSine ringer and a 12VDC wall-wart power supply. Bench testing led to a successful ring. After the joy faded a bit, I did notice something strange. It only rang with the receiver OFF-hook. I hooked the ring generator to the original wall cord (yellow and red/or/green). I had the handset sitting on the side on the bench when it rang, but it would not ring with the receiver switch depressed. Shouldn't it be the opposite?

I'll make it work regardless, but that seemed weird. I still need to try it on the existing house wiring. I have a feeling I'll need to add a delay-off relay so that a quick press of the doorbell button still makes a bit of a sustained ring.

Thanks again

 

[TelePlay]

Hook one lead to green, the other to red. Yellow is not used/needed. Hook the DSine output leads to L1 and L2, the normal red and green connection to the wall.

You never did post an image of your network. If one of the ringer wires, red or black, is attacked to the network ground terminal G, that wire should be moved to L1 or L2, which ever does not have a ringer wire attached to it.

Slate and slate/red stay on A and K.

[rotaryclub]

The diagram I have shows the wall-to-phone cord wires as: Yellow->network G, Green->L1, Red->L2.

I've got DSine output L1->Yellow , L2->red OR green produces a ring (which is all I really care about). But it only rings with the handset switch sprung up/off-hook. Curious.

[TelePlay]

This diagram is for bridged ringing, no yellow (G) conductor needed.

Your diagram sounds like grounded ringing.

A picture of your network would be useful.

[rotaryclub]

I would show the network, but I'm new to the forum and only see a way to add an image from a URL--not from a file.

[TelePlay]

About 10% of the WE 500 phones that I get are wired for bridged ringing, yellow line conductor on G and black ringer wire on G. Moving ringer black from G to L2 changes the phone from grounded to bridged ringing, yellow is not needed.

 When you are creating a post or reply, click on the "Preview" button below the text box (on the left) and then scroll down to and click on "Click or drag files here to attach them.", click on the images(s) you want to attach from your photo library (can attach up to 6 images per post/reply) and click "post" when ready to complete the reply/post.

Like this:

[rotaryclub]

I initially left all of the network wiring in place. That's when I got ringing OFF-hook. I tried your rewiring suggestion, and it does now ring ON-hook and not Off-hook. Thanks.

Hopefully my pictures come through on this post.

I temporarily hooked my whole setup to the house doorbell wiring today, and it works! As I mentioned, I may add a delay-off relay to make sure I get a couple of seconds of ring per push of the doorbell button.

Out of further curiosity: Is there a way to get different ring patterns, say for what would be L1 and L2 (now front door and back door)? Is that controlled by the phone's network and ringer coils, or was that triggered by the actual phone company's signal?

Thanks again for everyone's help.

[TelePlay]

The phone company, the central office, set the ring cadence. US cadence of different than EU.

US rings for 2 seconds, then quiet for 4 seconds. EU generally has a double ring pattern (0.4s on, 0.2s off, 0.4s on, 2s off). A 6 second vs 3 second cycle.

If you wanted to design it, a circuit using two 555 ICs and two relays (and other appropriate components) could be used to set a ring pattern and time for one door different than the other. Plenty of such circuits on the Internet, search for 555 timer circuits.

I noticed the image of your network has the black ringer wire originally on G which you then moved to the green wire (L1) terminal to get it to work right.

Glad it worked out for you so far.

[countryman]

EU generally has a double ring pattern (0.4s on, 0.2s off, 0.4s on, 2s off). 

Germany has 60...90 V 25 Hz, 1 s on, 4 s off for analog device. This has not changed with the migration to digital techniques.

Special call patterns can be set on modern device, though.