Telephone Switching > General PABX Talk

Can key telephone systems be used multiple times i

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bellsystem:
I am looking to deploy a PBX with vaguely this setup (where the four numbers are the extensions, i.e. (NPA) NXX-XXXX, last 4 Xs if DID):
Direct Inward Dial/Direct Outward Dial:
1000 -- Auto-Attendant
1003 -- Directory
1005 -- Main House Line (General Line)
1010 -- Work Line Basement
1015 -- Personal Line Basement
1020 -- Fax Basement
1110 -- Work Line Ground Level
1115 -- Personal Line Ground Level
1120 -- Fax Ground Level

The remaining phones, whether they be 20 or 200, will not have DID/DOD. They will not be directly dialable from the PSTN, and their outgoing caller ID will be 1000, rather than their actual extension.

Some of the extensions that DID/DOD will be used on, I would like to setup in a key system of some sort, although it would be more complicated than any systems I've encountered.

Since most Western Electric multi-line/key telephones only support 5 lines, I would like these lines to be used for the key system:
1005
1010
1015
1110
1115

All of these telephones, with the exception of 1005, the main line, would be actual telephones in their respective office. There would be a phone connected to 1005 in the both the ground level and basement office.

The problem is that these are likely to be the phones with the most incoming calls. Given that I plan on having phones all over the house, I'd like to be able to take an incoming call for one of these lines when I'm not actually in the office the phone is in (or either office, with 1005).

I was thinking of putting a few multi-line telephones around the house. Because I'd be using all 5 lines, there wouldn't be room for the phone to have its own extension number, so I'd have it next to a singleline phone in that particular room, most likely. I'm thinking about getting between 7 and 10 of these to place around the house, spaced apart so that if there is an incoming call on any of those five lines, it not only rings the primary telephone the line is connected to, but it also rings (the actual gongs, not a buzzer, for all lines) all the key system telephones as well.

To complicate matters, I would like the privacy-line telephones to be used for the primary phones so that if a call is answered on the primary telephone (with the exception of 1005, since there would be two, which is not possible for a privacy switch), the user at that station can turn the switch and prevent anyone from using any of the key telephone sets (multi-line sets) around the house to listen in. If a call is answered on one of those five lines using a Multi-Line telephone, then someone else can still use another key system telephone, or the primary telephone, to listen in. For 1005, since there would be two primary phones, I'd splice/duplicate the wiring closer to the PBX and run wire to each of the primary phones but also the multi-line phones directly - thus there would be no way to enable privacy on the main line.

So in the end, each of the multi-line telephones would look something like this one, only with the actual extension numbers:

     http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/yJwAAOSwdjNZCAjb/s-l1600.jpg  (attached below)

I believe this would require running the line for those five extensions to the five sets first (splicing the line for 1005, and running it to the two phones in both offices). From the primary phones, I would need to run wiring back into some sort of splitter for key systems, and then combine one of each of the lines to run to each of the multi-line telephones.

Obviously, this would be a lot of complicated wiring. I'm not too worried about loss of quality, since only one of the ML telephones or the primary telephone should be utilized to use a line at any time, although feasibly all the ML phones could be connected to different lines, or maybe a few on the same line to set up inherent manual "three way calling" of some sort.

Is there a commercially available solution out there to accomplish what I have described, or would this all have to be custom-wired? I don't imagine there are too many setups out there this complicated, but if there are, I see no need to reinvent the wheel.

Victor Laszlo:
I have tried to read your question, but keep getting bogged down, not in small part because you interject "non-facts" and although you seem to display a fundamental understanding of what you want, you demonstrate a basic MIS-understanding of how some telephones and systems work.


--- Quote ---"Since most Western Electric multi-line/key telephones only support 5 lines..."
--- End quote ---

We assume that you refer to 1A, 1A1, and 1A2 systems.  In that case, you should realize that:

The 46x, 56x, 156x, 256x series phones have one hold key and 5 line keys.

The 83x, 283x (et al) series telephones have one hold key and 9, 19, or 29 line keys.

ComKey 416® systems have a square architecture, but can be equipped with a "personal line" kit to allow a 5th line to appear on one or many phones.

The Call Director® series of telephones have one hold key, and up to 29 line keys.

The Horizon® and Merlin® series of "voice terminals" can come equipped with that many, or many more, line appearances.

The x565 series telephones can be equipped with a switchhook intercom kit that allows an intercom line to be accessed when no line key is pressed.

Other manufactures make answering ("trading") turrets that can be equipped with an almost infinite number of line pick-ups, limited only by the desk or wall space available and the length of the subscriber's reach or comfort. Some of these are 1A2-based, some are not.

Moving along:

DID numbers, if you can educate your RBOC in what they really are, can compel them to provide them, and you can afford what they will charge for them, come in minimum groups of 20 consecutive numbers.  Be advised that DID service, as a promoted product, is fast being eliminated in most wire centers where it was once offered.  It CAN be replicated by using a VoIP service, at much lower rates. Many of us on C*NET do it that way.


--- Quote ---"The problem is that these are likely to be the phones with the most incoming calls. Given that I plan on having phones all over the house, I'd like to be able to take an incoming call for one of these lines when I'm not actually in the office the phone is in (or either office, with 1005)."
--- End quote ---

NOT a problem. Research, for instance, discussions on TAFAS. ("trunk answer from any station")


--- Quote ---"To complicate matters, I would like the privacy-line telephones to be used for the primary phones so that if a call is answered on the primary telephone (with the exception of 1005, since there would be two, which is not possible for a privacy switch), the user at that station can turn the switch and prevent anyone from using any of the key telephone sets (multi-line sets) around the house to listen in. If a call is answered on one of those five lines using a Multi-Line telephone, then someone else can still use another key system telephone, or the primary telephone, to listen in."
--- End quote ---

Yes, you sure have complicated matters...but we can help you sort it all out.  The feature you are looking for is called "privacy."  It can be implemented in 1A2 and electronic key systems.  It is generally NOT accomplished with a manual key. It is done automatically.  The larger ComKey telephones, based on 1A2 architecture, come equipped with privacy circuit boards. They detect a grounded A-lead within the system, at the moment that a second person tries to access a busy line.  In electronic systems, it can be implemented through software.

--- Quote ---"...since there would be two, which is not possible for a privacy switch..."
--- End quote ---
  See above.


--- Quote ---"For 1005, since there would be two primary phones, I'd splice/duplicate the wiring closer to the PBX and run wire to each of the primary phones but also the multi-line phones directly - thus there would be no way to enable privacy on the main line." 
--- End quote ---

One does not "splice" in a key system cabling plan.


--- Quote ---"So in the end, each of the multi-line telephones would look something like this one, only with the actual extension numbers: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/yJwAAOSwdjNZCAjb/s-l1600.jpg"
--- End quote ---

That is a Western Electric model 2565HKM-60.


--- Quote ---"I believe this would require running the line for those five extensions to the five sets first (splicing the line for 1005, and running it to the two phones in both offices). From the primary phones, I would need to run wiring back into some sort of splitter for key systems, and then combine one of each of the lines to run to each of the multi-line telephones."
--- End quote ---

Assuming that all along, you have been discussing 1A2, you need to study how those systems are cabled, cross-connected and laid out. I suggest that you read Key Systems Manuals, I, II and if you want to learn about ComKey systems, III.   These systems use specially-designed backboards, terminals, cables, and relay equipment. Are you familiar with any of the 1A2 equipment?  Cabling (not "wiring") is on a "home-run" architecture.  No splicing or interconnections are required outside the KSU area.

--- Quote ---"...some sort of splitter for key systems,..." 
--- End quote ---
There are devices that allow two key telephones to share one cable, but their use is not recommended due to violet-lead interaction and lack of ease in trouble-shooting. Are you, by any chance, referring to KS-19252 bridging adapters, List 1 through List 5?


--- Quote ---"Is there a commercially available solution out there to accomplish what I have described, or would this all have to be custom-wired?"
--- End quote ---

The commercially-available solution is called, in your case, a 1A2 system.  No custom wiring necessary. 

--- Quote ---"I don't imagine there are too many setups out there this complicated, but if there are, I see no need to reinvent the wheel."
--- End quote ---

You don't think so? Every small, medium, large and huge business in this country once had one. I worked on one that had 6,000 DID lines and 12,000 telephones.  Regardless of size, they are not complicated if the installer is well-trained and understands the concepts required. Your proposed system is not complicated.

bellsystem:
Okay,
so how would I connect the 1A2 system to the PBX then? Does it support being connected like that?

I didn't mean MOST Western Electric phones, my bad. I meant all the phones that are multi-line that are the same STYLE as the 500 and 2500 telephones. I don't think there are any multi-line phones that look like the 554 or the 2554...

I know there are phones with more but I like those phones the best, so yes, I will limit myself to 5 lines.

If equipment can do the privacy automatically, even better. But there are some lines - like 1005 - where I WOULD want someone to be able to pick up another extension and listen in or join the conversation. Is that supported on a per-line basis or will it no allow two telephones connected to the same line to be off-hook at the same time?

Do you have links to those manuals? Are there part of the Bell System Practices?

Victor Laszlo:
The PBX has T&R outputs. They are cross-connected to the key system T&R inputs.

Are you aware that a PBX is simply a small CO, in operation?  That's why when the Bell System (the real one) refers to line circuits, for instance, they say "CO or PBX ckt."

--- Quote ---"I don't think there are any multi-line phones that look like the 554 or the 2554..."
--- End quote ---

Right.  Are you familiar with the 6040 key or the 6050 key, or 2851 tel sets?


--- Quote ---"I WOULD want someone to be able to pick up another extension and listen in or join the conversation. Is that supported on a per-line basis or will it no allow two telephones connected to the same line to be off-hook at the same time?"
--- End quote ---

It's called "privacy release" and, of course, it's offered for just such an eventuality as you describe. 


--- Quote ---"Do you have links to those manuals? Are there part of the Bell System Practices?"
--- End quote ---

No.  Yes.

I will gladly tell you what you need to do. I will not tell you how to do it.  I do this for a living.

bellsystem:
The 2851 I am familiar with. I may have one or two of those, but I'd mostly want phones that resemble the 500/2500,

Thanks for sharing the 6040 thing. Maybe I'll have one of those, just for the sake of it,

One of my projects for the next couple days is downloading all the Bell System Practices. I've got a list of websites to comb through. Hopefully I find some info on the 1A2 in there.

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