WANTED: Western Electric 22T or 22BT magneto (3-bar)

[JCPhone]

I have a WE model 317Y which is the 33 1/3 cycle and originally had the odd 22T magneto.   Over the years someone has put a 48-A in it.    I am trying to track down a 22T so that I can make this set all original.  It still has the 33 1/3 cycle ringer.

[TelePlay]

WE, to the best of my knowledge, never used frequency ringers and I've never seen a frequency ringer on a magneto phone from any manufacturer.

[LarryInMichigan]

A frequency ringer on a magneto phone would make no sense.  The frequency of the ringing voltage depends on the speed at which the caller turns the crank.

Larry

[JCPhone]

Info on the 317 harmonic ringing system can be found here:   http://www.telephonecollecting.org/Bobs%20phones/Pages/WE317/WE317.htm

The 317 Y is listed in the 1912 WE catalog and the magneto used is on page 36.   Ringer type and photo on page 76.

[JCPhone]

Sorry, I forgot to attach pictures.

[LarryInMichigan]

I wasn't aware of this.

[TelePlay]

I wasn't aware of this.

Neither was I in that WE did not make or use the CO frequency ring generator need to correctly operate a frequency based party line system.

The "Y" seems to be a WE version purchased and used by those "other" company systems that used frequency based ring generators on party lines - and that would have had to have been a central office based system, not the original long line rural magneto based system.

[TelePlay]

In your phone, as obtained, has the magneto circuit been isolated from the phone line?

Assuming the final use of this phone was p on a central office system using a frequency based ringing system, I don't think the CO would want to see 90VAC magneto ringing current being sent to it.

Very strange setup, a phone that has a magneto and a frequency ringer.

[JCPhone]

This phone had several of the wires unhooked and some newer wire jumpers in it,etc.   Also had a 48A magneto sitting inside (loosely) attached with one bolt.    I am assuming someone began working on it and just got confused or something.     I am trying to return everything back to original.     I,ve been working on putting everything back per the attached schematic and I did jumper in the 48A and when I crank it, it rings.   

[JCPhone]

The 1912 WE catalog lists the original 22T magneto as one that is "Alternating current" and open circuit.   The 1916 catalog lists the 22T magneto as "Pulsating current" and armature normally open.

[TelePlay]

The interweb defines pulsed current as:

"Pulsating current can be created by rectifying a single-phase alternating current (AC). This process blocks out the reverse half of the cycle, resulting in a pulsating unidirectional current with intervals when no current is flowing. This is sometimes called "half-wave" or pulsating direct current"

While that diagram shows a frequency ringer, the ringer instructions at the bottom are new to me.

[JCPhone]

This is similarly explained in the WE 1916 catalog, bottom of page 203.


The Generator is "Arranged to give alternating current, but contact springs are arranged so that approximately one
impulse of current out of four is sent over the line."


If anyone has or comes across a 22T or 22BT, I would be interested.   

In the 1912 catalog, it is used on WE models: 317Y    Desk set ringer boxes: 354A,E,F,G

In the 1916 catalog, it is used on WE models: 1317CHA, CHB, CHC

and probably most other sets designed for "harmonic" use.

Thanks for checking!

[TelePlay]

This "Wanted" topic is turning into a technical discussion, which is not a problem and will be moved to the technical boards once the "Wanted" topic expires.

The link above was quite informative especially for the WE 3 series of wood phones produced around 1910. The link includes very good information about the Series 2 and Series 3 transmitters and also the "art" of magneto based selective (frequency)ringing.

This is from that link and posted here for posterity. It's a bit complex.

"From the start, the 317 was designed as a party line telephone, to suit as many conditions as possible. This gave rise to a large number of versions, some of which will be detailed later. The following description is from Western Electric's 1912 catalog.

Magneto Signalling System

In the code ringing system, a large number of parties may be connected to one line, all of the ringers at the telephone stations and the central office drop being bridged across the line. Whenever a party on the line operates his hand generator, all of the ringers in the other telephone sets and the central office drop are operated. When the central office operator rings on the line, all the bells are sounded. The party wanted is called by a code system made up of various numbers of long and short rings.

In the harmonic selective ringing system, selective signalling is secured by properly tuning the ringers to operate on different frequencies. Four frequencies on a constant voltage are used, 16 2/3 cycles, 33 1/3 cycles, 50 cycles and 66 2/3 cycles. Special keys are provided at the switchboard so that either four parties with bridged ringers or eight parties with grounded ringers can be signalled selectively. For outgoing calls, the central office only can be selected.

In the four-party selective ringing system using pulsating current, four telephones may be connected to a metallic circuit and signalled selectively. The ringers in these telephone sets are biased, and two ringers are connected to ground from each side of the line. One ringer on each side of the line is arranged to operate on negative pulsating current. The cord circuits at the central office are so wired that positive or negative pulsating current may be sent out over either side of the line to ground by means of a special key for each cord circuit or a master key for an operator's position.

The center checking system is used on toll lines when it is desired to have several stations on one line and yet require all of them to secure connections through one office. The ringers at the stations are all biased one way and bridged across the line. They are operated from the central office either by alternating current or by pulsating current in one direction only. The generators at the stations are all arranged to furnish pulsating current of the polarity which does not ring the bells, and accordingly it is impossible for one party on the line to call another except through the center checking operator. The central office has a bridged drop operated by the pulsating current, and the central office operator signals the parties on the line by means of a code system.

In the selective central office signalling system, a large number of subscribers may be connected on one line and arranged so that they can call each other without signalling the central office, or they may call the central office without notifying the other parties on the line. This is accomplished by bridging the telephones across the line and wiring them so that the generator is normally connected to the two sides of the line, but may be switched by the subscriber so that it is bridged between one side of the line and ground. At the central office, the drop is connected between one side of the line and ground.

If the subscriber operates the generator in the usual way without operating the switch, he will ring the other bells on the line. If, however, he operates the switch before turning the generator crank, he will throw the drop at the central office and the bells on the line will not sound. Some telephone sets are equipped with push buttons for signalling the central office, and other sets are provided with extra contacts on the switch hook, so that if the generator crank is turned after the receiver has been removed from the switch hook, the central office will be called."

And as Bob wrote in that link to his site about WE 3 series phones: "It can be seen from this that party lines were an essential part of the construction of telephone lines in the United States. This was partly an economy move, and partly because of the capital cost of erecting extra lines to service an area. A similar situation existed in Australia, although party lines were restricted to a maximum of ten parties using code ringing. Many railways worldwide found the system attractive, and the Western Electric phones were widely used on them."