The topic will show how to put together an early Western Electric 7C rotary dial that was taken apart for proper cleaning including
lubrication points during assembly. "Early" refers to a governor gear train that is held together with machine screws later builds may have 3 riveted posts holding the gear train plates together as in the 9C dials).
A few of the images used below were taken during disassembly. These dials go back together so easily, I forgot to take a few images needed to point out lubrication points and main spring positioning/tensioning assembly. It takes less than 15 minutes to put one of these back together including time for lubrication.
continued . . .
continued . . .
So I had been saving a dial to try the instructions TelePlay posted. The only thing I had ever done with a dial is to lubricate it or send it to Steve Hilz. It took longer since it was the first time but over all it wasn't the terrifying experience I was expecting. I know others have been doing this a long time and may have your own techniques but for anyone that hasn't tried disassembling a dial TelePlay's instructions were easy to follow. I only printed out the disassembly instructions but had to go back and look at the re-assembly instructions when I ran into issues. My opinion would be to print out both instructions before starting. Also screw tightening took a little trial an error. The dial looks like it may have been a fire so the biggest difference is of course is the bezel but you can see the dial didn't turn on its own but afterwards it works great. Thank you TelePlay for taking the time to post these instructions. I will have no hesitation on tackling another dial.
Regards,
Scott K.
I have one on a yellow 564 and looked up the adjustment BSP. the governor wasn't braking and I wanted to adjust it. after reading and tinkering with the dial I discvovered to leave it alone as it took care of itself. the phone works fine now. I haven't had to send any dials to steve in years and always wonder if he's still around and working on the phones. wonder what is going to happen to this service once he's gone....
Quote from: Babybearjs on March 27, 2021, 08:55:20 PM
I have one on a yellow 564 and looked up the adjustment BSP. the governor wasn't braking and I wanted to adjust it. after reading and tinkering with the dial I discvovered to leave it alone as it took care of itself. the phone works fine now.
Post a link to that BSP. I doubt it exists. While the governor can be adjusted AFTER a dial is disassembled, cleaned and properly oiled during reassembly, this was not a field service function so I'd really be interested in reading how WE refurb shops did it instead of reading your undocumented findings from a BSP.
Best would be to scan or print that BSP as a PDF file and attach it for everyone to read.
Knowing how to adjust a 7C governor and having adjusted many, I doubt that BSP exists so prove me wrong, post it as a link or attachment and I will be forever grateful to you for providing it.
Quote from: TelePlay on March 27, 2021, 10:37:24 PM
Post a link to that BSP. I doubt it exists. While the governor can be adjusted AFTER a dial is disassembled, cleaned and properly oiled during reassembly, this was not a field service function so I'd really be interested in reading how WE refurb shops did it instead of reading your undocumented findings from a BSP.
Best would be to scan or print that BSP as a PDF file and attach it for everyone to read.
Knowing how to adjust a 7C governor and having adjusted many, I doubt that BSP exists so prove me wrong, post it as a link or attachment and I will be forever grateful to you for providing it.
I think that I have a copy of the BSP that shows how to adjust governor on #7 - #9 dials; I will look tomorrow.
Will this procedure cure the dial that is hard to turn when dialing? Dial returns fine but it is hard to turn in the clockwise direction.
The dial I have is the Kellogg equivalent of the 7C.
Your governer clutch spring is stuck to the shaft. there is no adjustment for this. This is not the spring that is visible on the back of the dial that sets the speed. You might try penetrating oil on the clutch spring to loosen it. . This is the older dial so the part can be removed to work on it
First, I'm still waiting for someone to post the BSP on how to adjust the pulse speed for a #6, #7 or #9 type dial.
Now, to follow up on what redelius posted about your Kellogg dial in reply to your question
Quote from: HowardPgh on March 30, 2021, 11:38:03 AM
Will this procedure cure the dial that is hard to turn when dialing? Dial returns fine but it is hard to turn in the clockwise direction. The dial I have is the Kellogg equivalent of the 7C.
There are 3 springs on this type of dial, the main spring which powers the dial, the clutch spring which rdelius said seems to be frozen to the shaft running through it and the brake spring which controls the governor speed. Thanks to redelius for mentioning that, I've never had a clutch spring stuck to a governor shaft in all the dials I've ever worked on.
The gear train cage can be taken apart (if held together with 3 machine screws and three brass spacer tubes) to clean the gears but two shafts, the pulse shaft and the governor shaft, are press fit onto the top plate of the gear train cage. Removal of the governor shaft may be possible but I've never done it. Once the cage is taken apart, there is plenty of access to both of these press fit shafts to clean them and lubricate the bearing and surface contact points during re-assembly.
With your Kellogg dial, if the gear train cage is held together with 3 machine screws, the cage can be taken apart giving you free access to the suggested frozen clutch spring so it can be worked on to loosen it from the shaft, cleaned and lubricated.
If you gear train cage is held together by 3 posts that are riveted to the top and bottom plates, the cage can not be taken apart and you will have to work on the gears, shafts and clutch spring from outside the cage, a bit more difficult but not impossible to do.
This is the dial's main spring
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23870.0;attach=233849;image)
This is the dial's brake spring
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23870.0;attach=233851;image)
This is the dial's clutch spring
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23870.0;attach=233853;image)
These are the two press fit shafts, one of which has the clutch spring
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23870.0;attach=233855;image)
When dialing a number, the clutch spring and the small gear between the spring and the governor rotates but the governor mounted to a internal concentric shaft does not turn. When releasing the finger wheel, the clutch spring, the small gear and the governor shaft rotate. The governor rotates on return to maintain a dial speed within spec (~10 pps). If you look at your governor while dialing 2 or 3, if the spring is frozen to the shaft, the governor will be turning backwards and catching on the governor race making it hard to dial. When releasing the finger wheel, the governor will rotate as it should, forward, to control the dial pulsing speed.
Please watch your governor when dialing and let us know if the governor turns when the finger wheel dials a number and when it is released. Also, pictures of the back of your dial showing how the gear train cage is put together would be helpful.
Quote from: kleenax on March 28, 2021, 06:29:45 PM
I think that I have a copy of the BSP that shows how to adjust governor on #7 - #9 dials; I will look tomorrow.
I really doubt that a service BSP for a #9 dial exists other than to say remove the bezel from the malfunctioning dial, throw the dial mechanism away, put the old bezel on a brand new 9C dial and install that into the phone.
The #9 dial used a governor that was different from that used on a #7 dial. The governor on a #9 was not open and as such, did not provide access to the internal spring or brakes.
If there is a BSP for adjusting the dial speed (and I'm still waiting for Babybearjs, kleenax or anyone else who knows where it is or has access to it to post the BSP as a link or a pdf attachment), it would only be for the #6 and #7 dials, not the throw away #9 dial.
Along those lines, the #2, #4 and #5 dials used a different type of governor which was meant to be adjusted to bring a dial back into spec and there is a BSP showing how to do that, even in the field.
I've never seen a BSP covering dial repair for a 9C. As you said around here if the dial had problems the bezel was removed and a new dial was used. But a new dial consisted of a new bezel and it may not have been the color you wanted or needed.
In some cases where the dial was an older one and replacement was needed they pulled one from stock and installed it to get by until the correct color could be ordered and then the dial was replaced again. The the dial that was temp, was discarded because it was used.
A lot of waste, but that's how it was done.
Both the 7C/7D and the 9C have ITT equivalents. They are probably covered in the ITT manual.
Quote from: TelePlay on March 27, 2021, 10:37:24 PM
Post a link to that BSP. I doubt it exists. While the governor can be adjusted AFTER a dial is disassembled, cleaned and properly oiled during reassembly, this was not a field service function so I'd really be interested in reading how WE refurb shops did it instead of reading your undocumented findings from a BSP.
Best would be to scan or print that BSP as a PDF file and attach it for everyone to read.
Knowing how to adjust a 7C governor and having adjusted many, I doubt that BSP exists so prove me wrong, post it as a link or attachment and I will be forever grateful to you for providing it.
For starters, try a Google site search in the TCI Library for "dial speed adjustment."
There are several promising references (both WE and non-WE). One BSP that has adjustment info for 5-type dials is:
https://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/search?q=501-162-100+i8 (https://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/search?q=501-162-100+i8)
6-type and later were intended to be replaced.
Quote from: paul-f on April 02, 2021, 01:14:35 PM
6-type and later were intended to be replaced.
That would seem to be correct and as such, no BSP for adjusting dial speed of a #6, #7 or #9 (if it had this type of governor) would exist.
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23870.0;attach=233851;image)
Replacement back in the day would have been easy with a truck full of new parts but today a #6/7/9? out of dial speed spec can only be adjusted (not replaced with a new dial), so the old out of spec dial must be adjusted, and can be adjusted, but not easily.
Only the above governor on a #6/7/9? can be adjusted.
If the #9, or any other dial, has the enclosed governor, the one with the 3 holes showing
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23870.0;attach=233906;image)
the internal spring, it can not be adjusted.
That's why I was so interested in learning where Babybearjs was reading about adjusting the above coiled brake spring type of governor in a BSP.
Quote from: Babybearjs on March 27, 2021, 08:55:20 PM
I have one on a yellow 564 and looked up the adjustment BSP. the governor wasn't braking and I wanted to adjust it. after reading and tinkering with the dial I discvovered to leave it alone as it took care of itself. the phone works fine now.
The image below showing the loosening of a set screw and movement of a metal plate to increase or decrease a dial speed is easy to do on a #2, #4 or #5 dial as proscribed in the BSP and having a dial speed tester.
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23870.0;attach=233931;image)
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23870.0;attach=233908;image)
Basically, if the governor is like the above governors (the set screw), it is adjustable as stated in a BSP, the speed can be adjusted.
If the governor is like the first image above (with the coiled spring holding the brakes), it can be adjust in a tricky, time consuming and tedious way but there is no BSP (unless Babybearjs can provide a link to what he was reading) showing how to do it.
And the #9 enclosed governor (the second image above showing the governor with 3 holes in the top of the case) can not be adjusted.
If the dial is an AE type with the dual wing brakes, those can be adjusted and the tech document for that in the TCI Library (https://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/document-repository/gsps-gen-tel/473-division/502-gsp-473-822-700-i2-dial-speed-adjustment), a copy of which in pdf format is attached found by Google searching the TCI Library thanks to paul-f's suggestion.
Of course, any attempt to adjust the speed of any dial requires the use of dial speed measuring equipment or software mentioned many times on the forum. The dial speed has to be measured to 1/10th of a pulse per second or better to see the results of the adjustment, or re-adjustment, etc. to know when to stop adjusting. That applies to any company's dial that is adjustable.
The ITT Kellogg TIMM from 1964 contains the following:
TYPE 19 DIAL
Trouble Shooting
1 Dial Troubles
...
1.3 RECEIVING WRONG NUMBERS
a: Dial pulse contacts Adjust contacts or
wrongly functioning. replace dial.
b: Incorrect dial speed Adjust dial speed or
(For most conditions, replace dial.
dial speed must be
considerably in error
to cause trouble.)
[from page M1C-TRB Issue 1 8-64. This is page 14 of 136 in the TCI library file.]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
These adjustments could be made either in the field or in the repair shop, according to the manual. The #19 dial is equivalent to the WE 7-type. The general description of the #19 dial is on page M2A-DLS/19 which is page 26 of 136 in the TCI file.
That would be great. I'm really interested in reading that guidance to see how it differs from how I've been adjusting dial speed on #6 and #7 dials.
Also, the #5 BSP disclosed that field techs could dial into the CO to get the speed of the dial being serviced. That would have allowed for field dial speed adjustment, back in the day.
Dial speed adjustment is covered in paragraph 5.5 of M2A-DLS/GEN (page 24/136 of TCI file).
please get and review BSP 501-162-100 Page 18. the adjustment I referred to was the "Gear Mesh" adjustment...
Quote from: Babybearjs on March 27, 2021, 08:55:20 PM
I have one on a yellow 564 and looked up the adjustment BSP. the governor wasn't braking and I wanted to adjust it. after reading and tinkering with the dial I discvovered to leave it alone as it took care of itself. the phone works fine now.
Well, we were talking apples and oranges here. Your post said "the governor wasn't braking and I wanted to adjust it" which to me seemed to say the dial speed was not right because the coil spring based governor brakes were not working correctly.
When in fact, what you were trying to do was adjust the gear mesh between the main spring gear and the governor/pulse gear train cage. This was fully addressed in steps 9 and 17 of this topics assembly instructions in posts http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=23870.msg238150#msg238150 and http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=23870.msg238151#msg238151 in the images duplicated below.
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23870.0;attach=219853;image)
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23870.0;attach=219863;image)
Yes, the gear train can be jammed up against the main spring gear so tightly that the dial will not turn in either direction or it can be so far away from the main spring gear that the gears do not mesh and the the finger wheel will return without pulsing or partial pulsing and a not very good sound of something like gears stripping.
The attached BSP document number you sent me to is a great use for anyone working with WE dials but after explaining how to adjust the speed of a #2, #4, or #5 dial, it states on page 12: "3.16 The speed of 6-, 7-, and 8-type dials is not adjustable and the dial should be replaced when speed requirements are not met" and that that verifies what I have been saying, there is no BSP for WE type dials.
However, thanks to poplar1, the ITT-Kellogg Telephone Instrument Maintenance Manual - circa 1964-65 in the TCI library (https://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/itt-practices/kellogg-timm-handbooks/13136-itt-kellogg-timm-64ca-telephone-instrument-maintenance-manual?highlight=WyJtMmEtZGxzIiwiZ2VuIiwiZ2VuJ2wiLCJtMmEtZGxzIGdlbiJd) (also attached here as a pdf), does tell how one can adjust the speed on a dial that uses a coiled spring to adjust the brakes, increase or decrease dial speed, on a WE #6, #7 or any other WE dial that uses a center coiled spring in the governor. This is the exact way I have been adjusting out of spec center coil spring governor successfully for years. This is from page 24 of the ITT manual:
"5.5 DIAL SPEED: Check the speed of the dial on a reliable pulse speed tester. If the speed falls outside the range given under the TEST heading in the individual descriptive sub-section, readjust it to be within the range given under the heading of READJUST. The speed is controlled by the end-to-end tension of the governor spring; reducing the inward tension of the spring causes the speed to be reduced and increasing the inward tension causes the speed to be increased. Adjust the spring tension by curving or flattening the spring at the center of the loop, using a pair of tweezers with flat jaws. Be sure that the loop of the spring is kept approximately parallel with the governor housing and has a clearance of about 1/64" from all other parts of the governor mechanism, except for the tips of the spring connecting to the weights."
One must have a way to measure the dial pulse speed before adjusting the governor of any dial. And, bending a coiled spring is not easy in that the amount of bend put into the spring will only be a small percentage of the physical bend of the spring. I've found that working with the 90° bend where the arm meets the coils is easier than messing with the coil itself. And, a very small change in the spring makes a significant change to the dial speed, either way. It's a multi step process. Determine the dial speed, remove the spring, bend the spring, put the spring back on the brakes, determine the new dial speed and if not in spec, remove the spring and bend it again, and again and again until the dial pulses within spec.
On page 11 of the attached BSP states how a field tech could check the dial speed of a phone saying:
"
Dial Speed Test3.13: In central offices equipped with automatic dial test equipment, test dial speed in the following manner:
(1) Obtain dial tone.
(2) Dial code number for dial speed test.
(3) After dial tone is heard again, dial one of the following digits:
• Digit number 2 (test for 8 to 11 pulses per second)
• Digit number 3 (readjust, test for 9.5 to 10.5 pulses per second).
(4) Listen for dial tone again, dial digit 0.
One of the following audible signals will indicate how the dial meets the requirements of the test:
a) Ringing induction-dial speed satisfactory
b) Rapidly interrupted dial tone-dial speed fast
c) Slowly interrupted dial tone-dial speed"
I doubt that is available today so one needs an analyzer, audacity or any other way of measuring dial speed before beginning to adjust the governor of any dial.
As paragraph 5.5 states, making the spring smaller in diameter thereby putting more tension on the brakes, pulling the brakes inward, will require more centrifugal force for the brake to make contact with the governor race so the dial will speed up. Making the spring larger in diameter will require less centrifugal force for the brake to make contact with the governor race so the dial will slow down. It's all about how much tension the coiled governor brake spring is applied to the brakes. Easier for the brakes to expand, more contact, more braking and decreased dial speed. Harder for the brakes to expand, less contact, less braking and increased dial speed.
While it's too bad the original reply had nothing to do with the governor itself, this did lead to a lot of valuable information anyone interested in adjusting the speed of a dial can use.
And, the same can be done with AE type governors that have two spring wings that control the amount of braking done within the AE type governor race as stated in the TCI library document 502-gsp-473-822-700-i2-dial-speed-adjustment (https://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/document-repository/gsps-gen-tel/473-division/502-gsp-473-822-700-i2-dial-speed-adjustment?highlight=WyJkaWFsIiwiJ2RpYWwnIiwiJ2RpYWwiLCJzcGVlZCIsImFkanVzdG1lbnQiLCJkaWFsIHNwZWVkIiwiZGlhbCBzcGVlZCBhZGp1c3RtZW50Iiwic3BlZWQgYWRqdXN0bWVudCJd) also attached below. And this applies to very old none WE dials such as the turn of the century Mercedes dials
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16425.0;attach=144267;image)
and other manufacturers dials that used the spring wing braking mechanism as shown in the above image.
So, that should cover governor adjustment except for the fully enclosed governors found on newer dials such as the #9C which can not be adjusted.
Gear mesh is important to proper dial operation but it has nothing to do with the adjustment of dial speed controlled by a governor.
Wow. This has been a great thread, thanks to everyone for their input here.
Quote from: kleenax on March 28, 2021, 06:29:45 PM
I think that I have a copy of the BSP that shows how to adjust governor on #7 - #9 dials; I will look tomorrow.
BSP Attached
Quote from: kleenax on April 13, 2021, 08:27:20 PM
BSP Attached
This BSP covers dial speed adjustment for the 5-type dials only.
The only adjustment for 6-, 7-, and 8-type dials is for the gear mesh, to prevent "excessive noise, binding, or lockup." (paragraph 3.29).
3.16 The speed of 6-, 7-, and 8-type dials is not
adjustable and the dial should be replaced
when speed requirements are not met.The 9C dial has the same mechanism as the 8-type.
well, thats the only information available on that subject.... I followed the information and was able to get my #7 dial to work OK...
Quote from: Babybearjs on April 14, 2021, 10:30:46 PM
well, thats the only information available on that subject.... I followed the information and was able to get my #7 dial to work OK...
Well, then, your initial reply, which was vague and unclear as to what you were doing, to this topic that was created to deal with the assembly of a 7C dial had nothing to do with this topic. Your issue should of been posted in a topic of its own listing the perceived problems or issues noticed in your dial which turned out to be, I think, the improper main spring gear meshing with the gear train. A topic, with images, discussing the irregularities during operation, the diagnosed cause and what was done to resolve the irregularities would have been a great addition to the knowledge content of this form, much better than what was first posted in a reply in which your said in a few, vague words saying the dial had a problem, you read some non-stated BSP, you futzed around with the dial for a bit, found that what you were doing was too complicated for you to understand, gave up working on the dial and poof, the dial was then working just fine.
While nothing new was learned from your tangential, off topic replies (proper gear meshing instructions were posted in the original topic instructions of dial assembly in steps 7 and 19), I'd like to thank all of those members who helped decipher your vaguely described problem and subsequent work as not being a dial speed adjustment and then took the personal time to look for, find and post the documents or links that addressed the adjustment of dial speed (governor adjustment on #2, 4, 5 and #6 to 9 dials if they use the center coil spring to control the governor brakes) so any member who now has a true dial speed problem, after properly cleaning and oiling the dial with the proper lubricants now knows how to increase or decrease the dial speed to get it back into spec, near 10 PPS.
End the end, not only is this is a good example of hijacking a topic but also how thanks to members other taking the time to clarify your raised issue got the thread back on topic and in that process significantly adding to the topic so that now anything any member would ever need to know about how to adjust a dial's speed can found in one place, in this topic.
While I realize few will ever attempt this level of dial restoration, it can be done, is not difficult and with the significant contributions to this topic by several members it now provides anyone wanting to correctly clean and adjust a dial with everything they need to do so.
Seems everyone learned a lot in this topic.
With this information, I may finally get up the courage to try rebuilding a dial.
However, Steve Hilsz has now done three dials for me, and his cost is very reasonable, his turnaround is quick and I have been very satisfied with his work. If you aren't sure about working on your dial, I wholeheartedly recommend Steve.