Dial Adjustment

[Brian B]

Good Morning.

My name is Brian B, I recently joined your forum. I am not knowledgeable on phone technology but I do own a Western Electric 1950's style 3 slot pay phone. While I was in the fire service I was fortune enough to work with the Telephone Pioneers in Illinois where I was impressed by the organization and their technical knowledge. Besides the opportunity to learn about the history and other peoples knowledge of old phones I had a question and needed some guidance from those on this forum. On my 3 slotted pay phone, I found that the dial tone becomes a normal sound level and less faint, when I fractionally move the dial very slightly clockwise. I had talked to Steve Hilsz and he stated he could make an adjustment to correct the problem. Steve had asked me to remove the dialer from the phone, which I did, but unfortunately Steve became ill and was taken from us before his time. His wife sadly informed me of his passing, but could not recommend someone that could help me with this issue. I am in Arizona and Illinois, can someone here be of some assistance with this matter. I hope I am communicating the proper way in this forum.
Thank you,
Brian B

[5415551212]

Brian I wanted to reply to welcome you to forum, I am not a expert on dial adjustments nor payphones myself but there are others on here that are whom that will hopefully chime in.
If you can post some photos and more details about your payphone, like the Western Electric model or any codes stamped on it, and also make and model of the dial and photos of the dial.
Cheers
Stephen
 

[HarrySmith]

Hi Brian. Welcome to the forum! You have found the best forum on the net. Lota of friendly knowledgeable people here who love to help. As Stephen already said, pictures would be helpful. Insides & out. Particularly the back of the dial since you already removed it.

[dsk]

Hi, and welcome here.
I am not an expert on WE dials, but if your looks close to this from the back, it should be possible to adjust the timing of the little finger where the center moves the contact so it happens just before it stops in the rest position.  Hopefully that will solve it. 
The picture is from this thread: https://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=22789.0

[TelePlay]

. . . if your looks close to this from the back, it should be possible to adjust the timing of the little finger where the center moves the contact . . .

That is an AE dial. WE dials do not have that center main spring post with pulse and mute wings attached.

We really need to see at least one clear image of the back of the subject dial to be able to try and help.

The WE #4, #5 and #6 dials, one of which might be in your pay phone, are slightly different.

—————

Just for comparison purposes, this is a WE #5 dial. The pulse leaf switches on the governor side of the dial case are activated, moved, by a pulse pawl controlled by the dialing mechanism on the other side of the dial case, the finger wheel side and the mute pawl attached to the mainspring gear on the governor side of the dial case. The WE dial is a totally different, and more complicated, dialing mechanism than the AE dial.

[Brian B]

Good Afternoon,

Thank you for the kind welcome. I currently do not have the model number but attached is a picture. Please let me know if it is legible enough. Thank you.

[TelePlay]

You have a #6 dial in your pay phone:



https://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18154.0


The side by side image shows you dial on the left and your dial with annotations on the right.

The yellow circle is the pulsing mechanism. The oblong white piece inside the thick line white circle (inside the yellow circle) is the pawl that opens and closes the pulse contacts. The thin white line circle shows the pulsing contacts that open and close as the oblong white pawl turns.

The red circle is the muting mechanism. There is a black post (white thick lined circle) on the main spring gear (beneath the leaf contacts) that holds the mute leaves close when the dial is at rest. When the dial is first turned to dial a number, that post moves away on the turning gear allowing the mute leaf switch (thin white lined circle) to open thereby preventing the very loud clicks created by the pulsing leafs from being heard in the receiver. When the dial comes to rest, the black post on the main spring gear pushes the mute switches closed so a conversation can take place.

Since you took a photo of you dial with the yellow plastic dust cover on, it's a bit hard to see the parts so below is the #6 dial I have on my bench right now with the same colored circles as used on your image.

Somewhere in all that mechanism is your problem. As said above, trying cleaning the leaf switch contacts with card stock paper (take the yellow cover off, 2 screws, and pull a thin strip of card stock through the contacts when closed).

If that doesn't do it, look at the mute contacts as you move the finger wheel to dial and then release it. You will only moving the dial a little bit opens that leaf switch.

I'm not sure what the problem is. You said

I found that the dial tone becomes a normal sound level and less faint, when I fractionally move the dial very slightly clockwise.

The dial tone should go away from your receiver as soon as you move the dial (because the mute circuit leafs open) to begin dialing. That may or may not be the dial problem. As soon as the dial moves, the CO should stop sending the dial tone and begin listening for dialing pulses. The CO stops sending the dial tone when it "hears" the first pulse.

I noted the mechanical operation. Others on the forum, such as poplar1, might be better able to help you with the electrical circuit related to leaf switch operation.

[Brian B]

Good Evening,

I will review the images that you kindly sent and start by cleaning the contacts with a card stock. I thought the dial might have been the issue because an ever so slight rotation clockwise brought up the dial tone volume in my handset.

[TelePlay]

I thought the dial might have been the issue because an ever so slight rotation clockwise brought up the dial tone volume in my handset.

It may be. One of the leaf contacts may need adjusting.

I'll have to look at my #6 more closely with respect to the movement of the mute leafs and the pulse leaf pileup when starting to dial. The pulse leaves close as the mute leaves open. At that point the pulse leaves are opened and closed by the rotating oblong pawl at the rate of about 0.06 seconds (break) followed by 0.04 seconds (make), total of 0.1 seconds per number dialed (dialing 0 produces 10 pulse cycles in 1 second - 10 PPS, 10 pulses per second).

———

I re-read your problem a few times and is it true, what you are experiencing, that when you lift the receiver off of the hook, you have a faint dial done and then by turning the finger wheel just a little, little bit you get a loud (normal) dial tone?

I put my #6 under magnification and the first thing that moves is one of the mute leafs (red circle) moving apart from the other and that movement starts after the finger wheel is moved 3/32 of an inch. Do you move your finger wheel more or less than 3/32" to get the increase in dial tone volume?

[TelePlay]

Circled in red are the muting circuit leaf switch. It is a bifurcated contact, the leaf is split into 2 leaves each with a contact point coated when made with a very thin layer of a rare earth metal to prevent corrosion over time.

The can become dirty and if so, can be cleaned by pulling a strip of card stock through the contacts when closed. Do no use anything abrasive on the contacts because that would remove the thin layer of rare earth metal and ruin the dial.

When the dial is at rest, the contacts are closed. When the finger wheel is turned, the contacts begin to open once the finger wheel is moved 3/32" (the two red lines on the blue tape, on the edge of the finger wheel). That's about 4.3 degrees.

If you have an initial faint dial tone when going off hook which gets louder when turning the finger wheel just a little, it could be the contacts are not making good contact but when slightly moved, the contact improves.

This is the only place in the whole dial's circuit that moves first when turning the finger wheel. I'm guessing that cleaning these contacts might help.

Let us know what affect cleaning the contacts had on your problem.

[poplar1]

Is your payphone a 233G, 234G, 236G, or something else? Is it wired correctly? Can you post pictures of the inside of the phone, showing all the connections?

If it is not a 236G, then it requires a subset (separate box with ringer and network). Do you have it wired to a subset?

As originally equipped, there is an electromagnet that, when not energized, prevents the first nickel from traveling down the coin track until a second nickel is deposited. On a 233G or 234G, you can temporarily bypass the electromagnet and coin transmitter by swapping the red and black wires of the dial cord where they connect on the black terminal block near the bottom of the upper housing.

[Brian B]

Good Morning,

I can see there are very intelligent people on this forum, which shows the experience I am encountering. To answer some of the questions, I would say I am moving the dial clockwise  3/32 or less for a louder dial tone. I currently am out of town in AZ with the dialer because I was originally going to bring the dial to Steve Hilsz. I am unsure which model pay phone that I have, I can provide pictures next week when I arrive back home. The phone does have a remote ringer and power source. Before reinstalling in my phone I will clean the contacts as suggested with some index card stock. I am unsure how Steve was going to make an adjustment, I have observed that the number dots are slightly off with the dots being slightly to the left of the dial circles when the dial is in the resting position. To me it is a very slight aesthetic appearance that most people might not notice. It might not have anything to do with my issue but I want to share everything I am observing. 

[TelePlay]

Xx

I am unsure how Steve was going to make an adjustment, I have observed that the number dots are slightly off with the dots being slightly to the left of the dial circles when the dial is in the resting position.

Without having the dial in hand to test, I have no idea of what Steve would have done.

If by dots you mean those on the dial number plate beneath the holes in the finger wheel being off center, that is not related to the issue.

In this image, the red circle is over the oblong hole in the finger wheel and the mating seat cast into the main spring cap, they only go together one way.

The main spring cap has an ear that causes the dial to come to a stop by hitting the post  cast into the dial case (yellow circle). The dial, and finger wheel, always come to a stop in the same place.

The number plate has a notch which fits around the finger stop (blue circle). It only goes together one way.

These are not adjustable.

Post an image of the finger wheel side of the dial.

[Brian B]

I am glad that the offset of the finger hole and dots is not related to my issue.  Enclosed is my image of the dial. Where are you located? If cleaning the contacts with the card stock does not alleviate my issue, do you have the equipment and be willing to look at my dial if I can get it to you ?

[HarrySmith]

It may be just distortion of the photo but when I zoom in it appears some of the contact springs are bent. Maybe that is what Steve saw? Circled in yellow.