WE 20-B in antique shop; is it worth it?

[WEBellSystemChristian]

I found a WE 20-B stick in an antique shop today that I didn't buy, because I was unsure of the price. The base, switchhook, transmitter cup and perch are all nickel plated, but are under a layer of very thin brass plating. The receiver and transmitter were replaced with Leich parts, and the early transmitter screw was replaced with a later one. It was $142, but the store can lower the price by 10 percent.

Was it worth it?

[wds]

You can do better.  I would pass.

[WEBellSystemChristian]

I'm sorry guys, I couldn't resist! After I left the antique store yesterday, I regretted getting that phone. I decided that I would get it this morning, even though it was a hefty $142, because I couldn't leave it there.

Bad news:

The nickel was removed. I was almost certain that it was brass plated over the nickel, but the nickel was actually rubbed off because it was probably very corroded.

The transmitter and receiver were replaced with Leich parts.

The felt is gone on the base. It was replaced with a piece of glue-on fabric that was easy to remove.

Good news:

Most parts are original. The base, stem, switchhook, perch, base plate, internals, and transmitter cup are all original.

No rust or corrosion! It was probably heavily corroded originally, but probably came off with the nickel.

I have a question:

What color base and cords would have been on this phone? I have seen some with brown, some with green, and some with green cords with brown bases, or vise-versa. I think I would prefer the green cords and base.

I know this wasn't the deal of the century, but I think it will look great when it's done!

[Fabius]

Find  someplace to do plating and get it re-plated with an antique nickel finish. The forum can give recommendations. You don't want it to look like bumper chrome on a 55 Buick.

Too bad the perch and cup don't have the full marking.

[dencins]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but when the phone came out of Western Electric I am sure it was plated like "bumper chrome on a 55 Buick" (without the chromium).  If the choice is to have it look factory original then it should shine.

Why use antique nickel finish?  Western Electric did not use antique nickel finish on these.  It already looks used and old so is it to make the phone look unused but old?

I have seen a few people who will clean up a phone and leave it at that but it seems there are a large number of people who refinish or have the phones refinished.  If the phone is painted the choice is to repaint it (and lately powder coat).  If it is plastic it gets polished to a high shine.  In both cases it is to make it look like factory fresh.  Why would a plated phone be any different?

Dennis Hallworth

[Sargeguy]

A nice 20-B usually sells for $300-500 but it needs to have all the parts.  This one looks like a bit of a "money pit"
You need a thumbscrew assembly...$50,  A *229* transmitter...$50, aN OST receiver....$175, a mouthpiece...$20, cords (green or brown) $25-$40, and re-nickeling and re-sueding....$100.  Phenolic grommets...$10.  Also, this is a later type, without the patent dates.  The version with the patent dates on the perch and the blank base commands a premium.

You can use either green or brown cords.  Most people go with green for a nickel phone. If ordering from OPW get the spade>pin WE style receiver cord with cloth conductors and cord style restraints (you will see why this is important when you get an OST transmitter).  You will also need a transmitter cord.  The line/subset cord isn't really seen so you can use whatever type of conductors and restraints you want, but I usually go with cloth to keep it period.  Now you need a 295A subset, preferably with the patent dates rather than the decal.  Yours is a later model stick so a box with the "block" style decal should be good.

[JimH]

I think there's something to be said about "original wear" that is appealing to me.  Many years ago I bought a 50AL candlestick from Dave Johnson at Wistful Vista.  It looks like new.  A few years later, I bought a "farm fresh" 51AL on ebay from an old farmhouse in Michigan.  The paint is worn off where it was held...it's dull in some spots and shiny in others.  I prefer the "worn" one to the restored one.  I think it's all personal preference.  For me, if I don't like the way it looks...I try to improve it.  This is one of those odd categories where nothing is right and nothing is wrong.  I know if it's antique furniture, most experts say you lose all the value if you refinish it.  If it was a car, you increase the value by restoring it. 

[Fabius]

Why use antique nickel finish?  Western Electric did not use antique nickel finish on these.  It already looks used and old so is it to make the phone look unused but old?

Because after 110 years it's more likely that the nickel finish will obtain a "toning", thus to duplicate that where plating is a must many use the antique nickel finish. I prefer to have a phone look like it should after 110 years. My preference is only to plate when absolutely needed.

Bottom Line: To each their own.

[WEBellSystemChristian]

I am planning to have it re-nickeled. Fortunately, I live in little old industrial Waukesha, so I have plenty of local plating companies that specialize in nickel around here. I don't think I'll use an 'antique' finish to it, because that isn't how it looked new. Personally, I would rather have it look 'fresh off the line' and make it catch the eye of everyone who walks into my room, rather than looking old, used, and sad looking. Besides, an antique finish won't look right next to a brand new, unfaded bright green cord.

Sadly, an OST receiver is too far out of my budget, so I think I'll have to go with a later receiver for now. Are the reproduction OST cords able to have spade tips installed in place of the pins?

Sargeguy, you said something about an OST transmitter? Will a typical 323 work on this phone?

Please hang in there with me guys, I'm not familiarized with candlesticks yet. I barely know my way around a 151AL, let alone a 20-B.

[poplar1]

The WE 143 and 144 receivers will accept either pins or spade tips (inside the receiver). The 122 receivers need pins only (outside posts). If you get a cord with pins on one end and spade tips on the other, you can use that with a 143/144 receiver now, and if you find a 122 receiver later on, you won't have to change the receiver cord. As far as I know, spade tips are needed inside the 20-B only.

[dencins]

A little history on bright nickel.

Modern nickel plating solutions contain additives.  One additive is referred to as a brightener and is why new nickel is shiny.  The early process for plating nickel was to use Watts Nickel.  This process produces a dull or matte finish.  If a shiny finish was desired, the process was to plate a heavy coat Watts nickel and polish it until shiny.  This was very labor intensive and required longer plating time.  Examples of documented bright nickel finishes from polishing have been found as early as 1890 (English belt buckles) and general opinion is polishing nickel goes well before that time.

The first patent for nickel brighteners was in 1908.  The first commercial bright nickel additive (Nibrite) was available in 1939 however companies were using various in-house custom formulas before Nibrite was available.  The reasons for using brighteners is to reduce plating time, reduce nickel usage and save polishing labor.

Dennis Hallworth

[WEBellSystemChristian]

The WE 143 and 144 receivers will accept either pins or spade tips (inside the receiver). The 122 receivers need pins only (outside posts). If you get a cord with pins on one end and spade tips on the other, you can use that with a 143/144 receiver now, and if you find a 122 receiver later on, you won't have to change the receiver cord. As far as I know, spade tips are needed inside the 20-B only.

So, what you're saying is, the pins on the cord are compatible with the later receiver (internal terminal) until I find an OST receiver?

[poplar1]

Yes, "spade to pin"---spades on the set end, pins on the receiver end---will work for all except the 706A receivers.

[WEBellSystemChristian]

Yes, "spade to pin"---spades on the set end, pins on the receiver end---will work for all except the 706A receivers.

Yeah, I just figured that out. I looked inside that receiver, and found out that the tips of the conductors had pins after all, not spades like I thought they would (fortunately). I think that the receiver casing is the only thing about it that's Leich, the rest of it look exactly like my other WE receivers. The previous case probably shattered, and someone stuck an off-brand replacement on.

[Sargeguy]

Sargeguy, you said something about an OST transmitter? Will a typical 323 work on this phone?

I meant the receiver.  You want to get an un-insulated transmitter.  The transmitter types I have sen on 20-Bs are:  *229*, 229w, *250*, *329*, A.B.T. Co., 7-digit, and *7-digit*.  The *229* is the "classic" transmitter for the 20-B.  A 323 came out long after 20-Bs were out of production.  It could work but it will need to be strapped.  Also, 323s were not nickel plated, they were painted black.  If a 323 were put on a 20-B the 20-B would have been struck out and 20-AL stamped on the perch, and it would have been painted black. 

Some thoughts on nickel plating

• I prefer the all-original old nickel finish with original faded cords when I can find it.
• Some phones are too far gone and need to be re-nickeled or re-painted.
• Sometimes I have one part replated and then take down some of the shine so it matches the rest of the phone.
• I had an old bell that was nickel-plated, left unpolished, then painted black.  I stripped the paint and had Dennis polish it for me.  The finish looks identical to a newly re-nickeled finish.
• I have several phones that have been re-nickeled.  After a couple years I cannot easily tell which ones were re-nickeled and which ones were not.

I would use Dennis for the nickel plating.  You want to use the guy who has nickel plated hundreds of phones rather than the guy who has never seen one before.  Also, I am pretty sure Dennis' prices will be competetive wih a commercial nickel plater.